The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for the Nomination

I know it has become conventional wisdom among the giant brains of Hillary backers that Barack Obama is personally responsible for stifling democracy in Florida and Michigan.

But do you mind if I ask a few questions?

  • How is Obama personally responsible for the parties in Michigan and Florida moving up their primaries against the DNC rules?
  • What role do the DNC sanctions have on the process?
  • Were state party officials aware of the DNC sanctions and consequences?
  • Who bears the greatest responsibility for the sanctions being imposed on these states, and, by extension, their voters? State officials, the DNC or Barack Obama?

I know it is convenient for the Clinton camp deep thinkers to pin the blame on Obama and make Hillary the True Champion of Democracy©, but if she is, indeed, the True Champion of Democracy©, why has her campaign constantly belittled the states Obama won and cried about how undemocratic caucuses are?

Weren't all these rules and caucuses in place before the primaries started? And shouldn't the wishes of all these good Democrats count, too?

Why all the whining and moaning and gnashing of teeth after Clinton got her ass handed to her throughout the month of February?

Blame her campaign for her failure. They were too arrogant and too lazy to work for the nomination.

Here's a good read on the topic from Jay Cost at the RealClearPolitics HorseRaceBlog today:

What Went Wrong with the Clinton Campaign

...

There is no doubt that it has been a poorly run campaign. But what has been so bad about it? We could point to a lackluster message, or Bill's various gaffes over the last three months, or the staff that couldn't stop watching soap operas long enough to pay the bills. There's something to all of these things, but I think they are symptoms of an underlying malady.

...

This is an organizational failure of monumental proportions. There is no other way to put it. The question is why did it happen?

There is no great skill that the Obama campaign possesses that the Clinton campaign lacks. Organizing caucus states still has a lot in common with 19th century politicking. You need a friendly smile, a good handshake, and a sturdy pair of shoes. Obama didn't develop a new way to organize. He just chose to organize while the Clinton campaign chose not to.

The only reason it would choose not to organize is if it did not think it was worth the cost.

That's right. All the whining and moaning and gnashing of teeth would have been avoided had Clinton and her campaign actually worked for the nomination.

Instead, they were hugely arrogant. As Cost summarizes:

I think its mistake was its starting point. It bought the same inevitability line it sold to the press. It began with the assumption that Clinton could not lose the nomination. If you assume this a priori, you will inevitably interpret all of the evidence in a way that reinforces your preconceived notions. It's like adding epicycles. If she cannot lose, there is no reason to worry about Obama's money, no need to anticipate that this might be an early indication of his appeal. If she cannot lose, those summer polls are not mere artifacts of her name recognition; they are critical pieces of evidence that demonstrate how the race is over before it begins. If she cannot lose, there is no need to organize in the caucus states because the race will be over by then.

What we are talking about here is plain old arrogance. I think this is the central mistake of the Clinton campaign. It presumed that the nomination was Clinton's. Not Clinton's to lose. Just Clinton's. Period. As a consequence, it behaved in an unduly confident manner. Mark Penn is to be blamed, for sure. So is Patti Solis Doyle. But so also is the entire upper-echelon of the campaign. Above all, it's Hillary's fault. She's the candidate. She sets the tone.

Truer words were never spoken. Place the blame for Hillary's failure squarely where it belongs: on the candidate, herself. And her campaign's incredible arrogance.

The whining about the process, after-the-fact, and after her campaign chose not to work hard in more than a dozen states, simply backs up the old adage, "There's no substitute for hard work."

In the best American tradition, nothing is handed to you. You have to work for it. And Obama and his campaign have outworked Hillary and her campaign.

Them's the facts, friends.



Display:


Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (1.80 / 5)

Well, call me a sexist, but I think she should have found some talented, experienced female campaign strategists.

Instead she hired the 4 Bozos - Penn, Wolfson, McAuliffe and Ickes, who drove her campaign straight into the ditch.


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:21:51 AM EST

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 3)

By that same token would you think it would have been utterly ridiculous for Obama to exclusviely use only mixed race or people of color for his inner circle? If no why? If yes why?


by TMP on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:39:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 2)

 She doesn't have what it takes to lead if she can't even manage the egos of her own campaign staff.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:17:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 4)

I'd like to remind everyone that George W. Bush ran a well organized/disciplined campaign.  One's ability to win elections does not translate into one's ability to govern.  

As for Obama running a "great" campaign, does  running a "great" campaign mean not winning any big states?  Does running a "great" campaign mean disenfranchising Florida and Michigan?  Before you say, "they broke the rules," that doesn't matter.  Millions of people voted.  Are we really going to tell voters in Michigan and Florida, "well, your state broke the DNC roles so your vote doesn't count"?  Or that their votes count, but as long as they don't change anything?  That's change we can believe in?

Whoever wrote this post, don't start your victory dance just yet.  There is a lot of race left and guess what?  Hillary ain't going anywhere.  Deal with it and come up with something substantive as to why Obama is the better candidate instead of these lame arguments.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

Probably not worth picking the nit, but...

I'd like to remind everyone that George W. Bush ran a well organized/disciplined campaign.
While GWB certainly benefitted from that campaign, I'm certainly not willing to give him credit for running it.  (That's probably what you meant anyway.)


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:43:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama strikes me as much more arrogant (2.00 / 2)

and he is deceiving Americans on a number of important issues, like healthcare, which is worse than arrogant, its evil.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deceiving Americans (none / 0)

Please do elaborate on the deception you state and how exactly that is evil. Can't wait for this one.


by Joe in Wynnewood PA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about running Harry and Louise lookalike ads? (2.00 / 1)

Is that close enough?  Shall we parse deception?  If so, how does a health plan work without universal enrollment, ala Social Security?

Anyhow, it's not the word I'd have chosen, but what I have found troubling in the Obama campaign is the willingness to co-opt rethuglican talking points (tort reform), and to recycle the likes of Harry and Louise.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama strikes me as much more arrogant (none / 0)

And that's relevant to my comment how?


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Karl Rove and Dick Cheney (2.00 / 1)

run Bushes campaign.

Setting that aside, its silly to argue that nomination winning skills are irrelevant.

While winning the nomination is not a an indicator of  how good of a president one might be you STILL have You have to get the nomination to run in the GE.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Karl Rove and Dick Cheney (none / 0)

Is the nomination fight over yet?


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All but the crying. (none / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (2.00 / 1)

So true.  Remember when Hillary was going down in New Hampshire?  Wait...no...that didn't happen.  Or remember when she was supposed to lose Nevada?  No, not that time either.  Oh, but she was going down on Super Tuesday.  She was going to lose California and New Jersey.  No, that didn't happen either.  But, wait, she was supposed to lose Texas and Ohio.  No, that didn't happen either.

I guess the only way for him to win is for her to drop out.  Wow, he sure sounds like a fighter to me.  Maybe if Obama or his surrogates was in Hillary's shoes he would have dropped out by now.  


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

Nobody really said that he was going to win in California or Texas or Ohio or Pennsylvania, least of all Obama.  What people did start saying was this:  Could he win Cali? Could he win Texas? Could he win Pennsylvania?

What was impressive at the time wasn't that he was going to win those, it was that he was going to make them closer than anyone could have realized.  Whereas Hillary didn't come within 10 points of him (not sure about this...could be corrected, but not by much) in any state between Super Tuesday and Ohio/Texas.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

Results in Dem Primary for big key/swing states:

California - Hillary +8

New Jersey - Hillary +10

Ohio - Hillary +10

Florida - Hillary +17


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just out of curiosity (2.00 / 1)

Are you saying that Obama, or any Democrat is going to lose California, New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts in November?

Cause if you are, please provide exactly how you came to that conclusion.

As for Florida, do you really think that if they held their primary on or after Super Tuesday and both campaigns had competed vigorously the result would have been 17 points?

How about Michigan? The best HRC could do against, quite literally, nobody, was 10 points.

I'll give you Ohio, well except for the fact that it's been on the reddish side of purple for some time, so it'll be a tough slog no matter who is our candidate, which, BTW, isn't going to be HRC unless she can get at least a 15 - 20% win in PA, and even if she does, she then needs to cut Obama's 20 point lead in NC at least in half and win Indiana by well more than 10% and even then she'll STILL be behind in both the delegate count and popular vote.


by Joe in Wynnewood PA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

I was responding to the earlier comment that Hillary has beaten Obama by large numbers in large and/or swing states.  

As for your question about Florida, actually Hillary pushed for a revote and Obama balked so I guess we'll never be able to answer that question.

Your statement on Michigan is just silly, but thanks for giving me Ohio.  I can't remember, but I think Ohio played a bit role in 2004....


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

"As for your question about Florida, actually Hillary pushed for a revote and Obama balked so I guess we'll never be able to answer that question."

Can you give a cite for this.  I've been following these events closely and I have yet to see any stories indicating that Obama played any substantial role in quashing a FL revote.  I am aware of a story indicating that the state party (including many Clinton supporters) ruled out a revote for logistical reasons having nothing to do with the positions of the candidates.  I am aware that Obama was opposed to a proposed revote plan in MI that would have disqualified a demographic that would have skewed heavily for him -- Dems who voted in the Republican primary before they knew there would be a Dem contest and with no reason to believe that their voting in the Republican primary would disqualify them from ours.  I am not however, aware of Obama actively working against a FL revote.  Not saying your wrong, I'd just like to see the evidence if you have any.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

In Michigan Obama's surrogates were effective in blocking a revote through the Michigan legislature.

In Florida, the Obama camp used legal arguments for not following through with a revote.

http://www.observer.com/2008/obama-lawye r-questions-michigan-re-vote-plan


by polson on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 03:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

That cite merely makes the assertion that Obama blocked revotes in FL without offering any details about what exactly he did to stop them from occuring.  I've seen other more recent cites asserting that Obama did not oppose revotes in FL.

"Obama has yet to declare his support or opposition, although his campaign has raised a number of procedural and legal questions about the most recent proposal for an early June primary in Michigan. "

http://www.buffalonews.com/357/story/303 563.html


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

I guess we should ask does he support a revote or having the current votes stand?  A lack of action on his part, as well as voicing various legal concerns sure give a big sign that he would prefer that the votes in Florida not count and they should not have a re-vote.


by polson on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

Fair enough, I suppose you could make that assumption.  Can you honestly say that if Clinton had lost the unofficial election that she would not have stuck with her original support for the DNC sanctions and "prefer that the votes in Florida not count and they should not have a re-vote". It also appears that a revote in FL would have been impossible for logistical reasons even if Obama had supported it.  

"A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it. Republican Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio refuses to even consider that option. Florida is finally moving to paper ballots, which is a good thing, but it means that at least 15 counties do not have the capacity to handle a major election before the June 10th DNC primary deadline."

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/03/breaking_florida_will_no t_hold.php


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 05:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just out of curiosity (none / 0)

I guess we'll never know...


by polson on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 06:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

Is the commenter Polson really named Mark Penn?  

Is the Clinton campaign ever going to stop this silly dissing of medium sized & small states?  Go ahead, keep it up, but Hillary should sue her staff for political malpractice.


by howardpark on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (2.00 / 1)

It's not about dissing small states, but I assume by your statement that you're saying big states aren't important?

Again, there is a lot of race left and Obama has yet to win a big state.  Until he is the nominee, I'd hold off on the victory dance.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

I guess Illinois is a "small state"? And Hillary did grow up in Park Ridge, IL after all - native daughter?

How do you define "win" in Texas? If you don't consider a delegate win a victory, then would you subtract Rush Limbaugh's Project Mayhem Republican crossover voters from Senator Clinton's totals?

(Using the same logic of Obama has to win California and New York in the Democratic Party primary) If Senator Clinton can't win a large number of smaller states in the primary whose electoral college total is greater than the big states and that are collectively critical for a Democratic win in November, does that not make her unable to win?

Oh, and don't forget Senator Clinton's massive 55 point blow out of Obama in Michigan. Wow - that had to be one of the hardest fought races ever! I can't believe Obama got zero votes. They must really, really hate him in Michigan. Maybe he should offer "Uncommitted" a spot on the ticket to help carry MI for the Dems in November.


by Reality Bites Back on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

Um, a win would be defined as who gets the most votes, right?  Or would you prefer Obama to win the George W. Bush way?  Lose the popular vote, but win by delegates?

I have no idea what you're saying about Michigan.


by polson on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (2.00 / 1)

"Or would you prefer Obama to win the George W. Bush way?  Lose the popular vote, but win by delegates?"

Wouldn't winning the Bush way be better than losing the Gore way?


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

Ironically, if all the caucus states had primaries instead, the projected popular vote lead for Obama would be 1.3 Million, instead of 750 Thousand.

Anyway, since Obama is winning EVERY metric, (except he is losing the states won by Hillary Clinton - she is winning among those states), then Senator Clinton being chosen by the superdeletates would be far more like the Supreme Court's choice for Bush over Gore, even though Gore won the popular vote, and upon recounting Florida, the electoral vote.

RE MI: I find it laughable that Clinton claims a huge victory in MI, and given her assertion of how the primary wins somehow predict GE performance, then clearly Obama should put "uncommitted" as his choice for VP, since next to Clinton, that's the candidate who did best in MI and would help Obama carry the state.


by Reality Bites Back on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Care to make a wager? (none / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Denial. (none / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All but the crying. (none / 0)

oh snap!


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 2)

How is Obama disenfranchising anyone?

  • Did the DNC set the rules?

  • Did the states know the rules when they set their primary dates?

  • Hasn't Obama consistently said he'll abide by the rules (see above)?

How is Obama the bad guy in this? His position is certainly more democratic that one claiming the votes should be counted even though Obama's name wasn't on the ballot (per the pre-agreed non-participation).


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

So then you're message to the voters in Florida and Michigan is "no, your vote doesn't count"?

It's difficult to come to the conclusion that Obama is completely innocent here.  For someone that likes to tout the "urgency of now" he is in no hurry to make the votes of Florida and Michigan count and at worst he has actually blocked any effort to make those votes count by stalling using various legal arguments.

Does doing away with the same old politics mean that it applies only when it's convenient to Barack Obama?


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 2)

So then you're message to the voters in Florida and Michigan is "no, your vote doesn't count"?

Not from me, not from that poster, not from Obama.  This message came from the DNC, and thpeople at fault is their own state's democratic party.  Sheesh.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

The last time I checked, Hillary was pushing for those votes to count.  Obama's plan?  A 50/50 split in Michigan and nothing for Florida yet.  And as Tom Daschle said, as long as they don't affect the outcome.

Kudos Obama.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

I don't want them to count. Cuz it wasn't a fair election. No one campaigned and Obama's name wasn't on the MI ballot. So don't blame Obama. Blame ME for disenfranching voters in two illegitimate contests. Illegitimate cuz we have no idea if the results actually measure the voter's intent.


by SeanF on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

Correction, Obama chose to remove his name off of the Michigan (MI) ballot.  Again, his choice.  And he did have an effort to some degree led by people like John Conyers to get people to vote "uncommitted".

Obama did run ads in Florida.

Is it illigitimate because the state of Michigan certified the vote?


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have you ever thought to ask yourself (none / 0)

why he would remove his name from the ballot in Michigan.  Is it because all these years he's been harboring a secret vendetta against MI and now is able to enact it.  Is it because for some unbeknownst reason he chose to disenfranchise them by not allowing them to vote for him.  Although completely illogical, that is how many an ardent Hillary supporter is treating the situation.

The truth is that he and Edwards felt like putting their names on the ballot was in violation of the pledge.  Hillary went ahead and did it anyway. Why was Hillary able to do this without feeling the wrath of party insiders?  Political capital. Which unfortunately Obama has not yet acquired.  So Obama plays the politics game according to the rules and now he's getting attacked by Hillary supporters.  Party unionity: what a ridiculous sham.


by Tenafly Viper on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have you ever thought to ask yourself (1.50 / 2)

I'm dumber now after reading your comment.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have you ever thought to ask yourself (2.00 / 1)

i don't think it's the comment's fault.


by SeanF on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have you ever thought to ask yourself (none / 0)

TR-ed for a complete lack of content.  If you have any valid criticisms I'm dying to hear them.


by Tenafly Viper on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have you ever thought to ask yourself (2.00 / 1)

First off, don't die.  My comments probably aren't worth that much to wait for.

Second, I don't think the Edwards and Obama took their name off the ballot to show some sort of loyalty to DNC rules.  If they really felt this way, then why didn't they do the same for the other states that broke the rules - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Florida?

It was probably a miscalculation on their part at the time, but it appears to be working for Obama now because he's been able to block any sort of revote.  So definitely a short term gain for him, but may hurt him if/when he's a candidate in the general (which is not a forgone conclusion).


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the response (none / 0)

I honestly don't know why they didn't pull their names in Florida.  Perhaps the other states you mentioned should have been published by the DNC, but they weren't.

What seems pretty clear is that Richardson, Edwards and Obama came to a consensus to stand in solidarity with the DNC.  It's the only reasonable conclusion.  I honestly don't think that the mess is significantly benefitting or hurting either of them (The latest national map I've seen has Obama winning MI & losing FL, and Hillary losing MI and winning FL).

AP Oct 9: Barack Obama, John Edwards and Bill Richardson have withdrawn from Michigan's Jan. 15 Democratic presidential primary.

The three filed paperwork Tuesday, the deadline to withdraw from the ballot, said Kelly Chesney, spokeswoman for the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

All of the Democratic candidates already have agreed not to campaign in Michigan because it broke Democratic National Committee rules when it moved its primary ahead of Feb. 5. The decision by Obama, Edwards and Richardson undercuts the validity of the contest.

Other Democratic candidates had until the end of the day to decide if they'll stay on the ballot.

UPDATE: Per MSNBC, Joe Biden has opted to pull out as well.

UPDATE #2: Dennis Kucinich has issued a statement asking to be left off the ballot as well.


by Tenafly Viper on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have you ever thought to ask yourself (none / 0)

Yet you didn't TR:

"I'm dumber now after reading your comment."

Seems like special pleading.


by BeerNotWar on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 04:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

In your mind, "an effort to some degree" equals a fair election, where everyone campaigned and all the voters voted cuz they knew their primaries hadn't been deemed invalid by the DNC.

you don't see how this looks ridiculous? The mental gymnastics are something to behold!


by SeanF on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

The candidates were ASKED to remove their names from the MI ballot and they complied.  Granted, it was partly to look good in the early primary states who HAD permission to hold their primaries prior to Feb 5th-as these early primary states were upset that other states were trying to 'upstage ' them.  This is why Hillary also said she would not campaign in MI or FL - to placate Iowa and the other early primary/caucus states.  So there is a little political face at play here.  However, it does NOT matter if any of the candidates 'campaigned'in what you say is illegally in MI or FL - the both did so, obama by running a national ad and Hillary by visiting FL for supposedly fundraisers and scheduling a 'victory' speech there on the night of their primary.  Whatever....it doesn't matter who or how they got there - the VOTES DID NOT COUNT.  Obama is not the guilty one here - get that through your head, okay???  It is so frustrating to see the absolute trickery being put out by Clinton and her supporters on this...if it was such a problem and she felt so sorry for these poor disenfranchised voters, then WHY DIDN'T SHE DO SOMETHING PRIOR TO THE PRIMARIES???  She only cared when she saw she might lose - period.


by mariannie on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is smart enough to know that disenfranchising (none / 0)

MI and FL can only hurt (perhaps fatally) the Democratic nominee (whoever it is) in November  -- and that ballgame ain't over yet, despite the triumphalism on view, here and elsewhere.

So I would argue that it is smart politics to seat MI and FL as is -- since there will manifestly be no revote.  I believe (and I am no mind-reader) that Hillary is smart enough to know that this is the percentage play no matter who's ahead at this point, and that she would argue for unconditional seating -- or at the very least, a full and fair re-vote -- even if she stood to lose.

As for why she didn't raise Hell early on, again, I am no mind-reader, but my take is that she figured that at some point the grown-ups would reassert control at the DNC, and straighten things out in a way which is fair to the candidates, and helps the party in November.  As we now see, that hasn't happened, and likely will not.

If her performance in the remaining balloting does swing the Super_D's to her side, the Obama supporters on the internet will throw a hissy fit of tsunami proportions; but my hope is that Obama and his campaign machine would (in that eventuality) react more rationally -- bite the bullet, and put their collective shoulder to the wheel.  That is what I expect of Hillary, should her bid for the nomination fail.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:00:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

Yes... Hillary is pushing for these votes to count...  Why...?  Because she is the beneficiary.  Simple as that.  If she is so completely democratic, why is she asking the Super delegates to put more emphasis on the big states...?  Why all the dust-up about states that caucus...?  Simple... caucuses don't favour her and she won the big states.

I think if she came out and said, every vote counts no matter the size of the state or the manner of election, I would believe that she is being sincere and altruistic about Florida and Michigan.  But she won't.  It is a political ploy.

And, for the trillionth time, we were not disenfranchised.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

disenfranchise  
"deprive of civil or electoral privileges," 1644, from dis- + enfranchise. Earlier form was disfranchise (1467).

And the reason why Obama is objecting to making the votes count or revoting would be because he's the beneficiary?

But maybe this is just a states rights issue.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

thanks...  I was pretty sure I had my definition stright...  nice to see the B.A. in Political Science did not go completely to waste.

We voted in Florida by the way...  we were not deprived of the privilege of doing so.  Our votes counted in fact.  We voted for state issues and races...  That our votes did not count for the primary was well known going in.  Had we been actually disenfranchised, we would not have been able to vote.

And one of the reasons Obama is objecting to counting the votes as set would be that he is the beneficiary if they do not.  He was not against a revote.  He had some qualifications for making it fair and legal, but wasn't not against it completely.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:09:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 2)

I am a Florida voter and have no problem abiding by the rules (nor would I if the candidate positions were reversed).

DNC rules are the law of the party just as Separation of Powers is the law of the U.S. An organization ignores it's own rules at it's own peril, as we've all seen.

A bit of dusting and polishing is needed on the DNC rule book, yes, but that's not Obama's fault.

Meanwhile, Hillary, who agreed to the rules, looks increasingly worse everytime she tries to claim unfairness. If I were her campaign manager, I'd tell her to stop shooting herself in the foot.


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (2.00 / 1)

Great message to the millions in Florida that voted.  Hey guys, those are the rules.  I'm sorry that you're Republican legislature and Republican Governor broke the DNC rules, but your vote doesn't count.  Oh, even though New Hampshire, Iowa, South Carolina and Nevada also broke the rules, their votes count.

That sounds like a great democratic platform and I'm sure it will play well in November.

Yes we can! (wait, not you Florida and Michigan)


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try (2.00 / 1)

except the FL Republican legislature that moved the date forward did so with a wink/nod from FL Dems. Dems did log a protest at the action but there is video of the exchange and it is clear that the Dem protest was a sham.

I've seen the video but don't have a link saved. If I thought it would make any difference in your opinion, I might make the effort to find it. But I don't so I won't.

You can spin this thing any way you want, but so far you have only proven that the rules need work. You most certainly haven't shown how Obama bears any responsibility.


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's that putz, Senator Steve Geller (none / 0)

being a dick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r25wUeMAwdE


by Bee on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (2.00 / 1)

Again, with the rules.  Sorry voters.  Your votes don't count.  We have rules.

Democracy at it's best.  So much for the "urgency of now" and the "politics of hope".


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

Sounds like you prefer a "democracy" that doesn't follow the rules.

You may be in the wrong party. Not following the rules is generally a trait of Republicans.

The "Urgency of Now" implies we want a candidate that will re-instate the rules we used to operate under. It's urgent because so many politicians (and apparently you also) feel that the rules are just "quaint".

I join in the "Politics of Hope" that Obama can give us our country back ... that could even be restated as "give us our rules back.

Maybe you can explain at what point tossing out the rules is the good, fair thing to do. Would you do that? I know there are times it's a good idea, like in our Revolutionary Way.

So maybe there is something I missed and this is the time the DNC rules need revolutionary change. If that's the case, I have to ask:

Why does your particular "Urgency of Now" happen just after Her Royal Highness got her ass handed to her, but wasn't so urgent before that?


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (2.00 / 2)

Actually, I believe in the bedrock of democracy, one person - one vote.

I guess because you feel that Her Royal Highness wants the votes to count then we shouldn't count them.  Politics of Convenience.

Casting aside whether or not counting the votes will tip the scales for her either candidate, does the Democratic party want to go into the general election with telling Florida and Michigan their votes don't matter?  I'm generalizing here, but do you think the majority of voters in Florida and Michigan care what the DNC rules say?  The Republican party came up with a solution, but we can't?  And as I said before, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada broke the rules as well, but their votes count.  


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

"One man on vote." A good rule.

Maybe the DNC should put that in the rule book.

You are railing against rules that have been in effect for years as if they violate the Constitution.

Well, they don't violate the Constitution. OUR party passed those rules. It seems they only make a mockery of Democracy when your candidate is harmed by them.

You don't like the rules? Change 'em. Meanwhile, stop whining as if Hillary is some kind of victim. I have been reading a number of diaries today and you would be surprised how many Michiganders and Floridians are saying ... "what's happened has happened, forget it and move on, I still get my vote in November." I, and I'm pretty sure many others, have confidence that voters in other states are up to the job, I'll trust their judgment then deal with screwed up rules later.

You may want to consider letting Florida and Michigan deal with the situations for themselves. Your concern is noted but misplaced. In plain English, mind your own effin' business.


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (2.00 / 1)

Well, if diarists on MyDD say that we should move on, then by all means.  That's a good representative sample.  

Oh, and as far letting Michigan and Florida dealing with the situation themselves, Michigan tried but Obama and his surrogates blocked that.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

Did they follow the DNC rules?

You keep forgetting the rules ... I know they can be quaint and inconvenient, but the do exist for a reason.

Hillary is the one that keeps trying to weasel her way around them, as are you.

How are the DNC rules Obama's fault?


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 12:32:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

Sounds like you prefer a "democracy" that doesn't follow the rules.

You may be in the wrong party. Not following the rules is generally a trait of Republicans.

The "Urgency of Now" implies we want a candidate that will re-instate the rules we used to operate under. It's urgent because so many politicians (and apparently you also) feel that the rules are just "quaint".

I join in the "Politics of Hope" that Obama can give us our country back ... that could even be restated as "give us our rules back.

Maybe you can explain at what point tossing out the rules is the good, fair thing to do. Would you do that? I know there are times it's a good idea, like in our Revolutionary Way.

So maybe there is something I missed and this is the time the DNC rules need revolutionary change. If that's the case, I have to ask:

Why does your particular "Urgency of Now" happen just after Her Royal Highness got her ass handed to her, but wasn't so urgent before that?


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:30:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can't manage big egos (none / 0)

Oh and thanks.

All of us in Florida really appreciate your rabid outrage at how our votes are being ignored. From an out-of-stater such concern is startling ... er ... unless you have some self-serving reasons for your feelings.

At any rate, we will still be able to vote Obama in as President of the United States. I won't feel the least bit dis-enfranchised on election day. But thanks for your ... er ... concern.


We are all complicit until we stop spying on citizens, restore the right to confront accusers and stop torture.
by Juan4All on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DNC Rules (2.00 / 1)

Clinton's #2 staffer sits on the DNC and voted for the rules.

Clinton is crying about Obama disenfranchising FL & MI voters while her guy, Harold Ickes, personally voted for the rules under which FL & MI's delegates would not be seated if they persisted in breaking the rules he voted for. So isn't it Clinton (by the usual rules of guilt by association, or in this case responsibility for the actions of your employees) who has disenfranchised FL and MI voters?

Ok, no is your answer to that (looking at my ever so accurate crystal ball), so then in the end, it is the legislators who voted to move the primaries and screw their own constituents, isn't that the unvarnished truth?


by Joe in Wynnewood PA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DNC Rules (2.00 / 1)

Again, do you really think the voters of Michigan and Florida care about the "rules"?  Do the rules only apply to Florida and Michigan, but not to Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada?  Do you not think that Republican Governor will push the story line that after Democrats whined and cried in 2000, they still won't count your vote in 2008?


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DNC Rules (none / 0)

The votes in MI and FL do not count because the DNC told them not to hold the primary prior to Feb 5th.  All candidates agreed to this, understood the language and said they would not campaign.  There may have been some (Hillary and Obama I guess) that broke those rules of campaigning, a little.  However, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the decision to not count the votes.  Obama and Hillary DO NOT decide what is going to count - they do not pay for the elections either by getting their big ticket backers to front the $.  NO ONE cared one fig about this (nor would Hillary care if the two states in question were Idaho or Montana - the votes/delegates would be insignificant).  After she saw she was NOT going to walk away with the nomination, she began her campaign AGAINST Obama - scapegoating him as the culprit.  What a laugh!  It is not the process, Howard Dean, Donna Brazille or anyone else's fault - the rules were clear - what part of that do you not understand???
The other four states are assured an 'order' of primary - New Hampshire did move their primary, but only because MI and FL were suddenly scheduled to occur before NH and that was not the agreed upon order.
Hillary and her minions are pathetic....and trying to change the rules that SHE agreed to because they don't suit her.  The caucuses do not count....except if its in Nevada where she won.  The small states don't count....because she can't win there!!  
I cannot believe those of you who see such garbage as being above board just because it comes from Hillary.
by mariannie on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DNC Rules (2.00 / 1)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think I've seen where Hillary has said that the results from caucuses don't count.  She did say that caucuses are undemocratic and to some degree they are.  They are scheduled only during a specific time of day.  If you can't make it during that time (working, no child care, elderly and too cold out, serving overseas, etc).  So caucuses exclude a lot of people.

But again, I will repeat, the millions of people that voted in Florida and Michigan do not care about the DNC rules or any other legal argument as to why their vote doesn't count.

And again, why do the votes in Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina count if they broke the very same rules that Florida and Michigan did?  The Republicans were able to come up with a solution for Florida and Michigan.  Is the Democratic party that inept that it cannot do the same?  If we are then so much for a Democratic victory in November.


by polson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ummm . . . what about Maggie Williams? (2.00 / 2)


by DrPolitics on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 3)

Actually, I think it was "a too many cooks" problem, and that Hillary lacked the confidence needed to choose effectively between them. Thus, she'd listen to one set of advisors one day, then switch to a contradictory tactic from Penn the next.

Hillary is a loyal person. She doesn't want to alienate the people close to her. The problem is, she doesn't have any qualms about alienating Obama voters and the states they live in, so her empathy fails to come across to many voters. She's loyal when she should be tough and tough when she should be loyal.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Her contempt also includes prospective voters (2.00 / 1)

which goes a long way towards explaining her campaigns records.

This morning provides a perfect example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGeQ6dxGM FA

Clinton is asked a legitamate question and she gives a reasonable answer, but before getting to it she feels the need to laugh in the face (for a full half a minute) of anyone who would have the gaul to ask her who has financed her campaign or what her #1 surrogates sharply different view on the Colombia trade deal means.


by DSloth on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Her contempt also includes prospective voters (none / 0)

She laughs....now that looks like a feint. She doesn't want to answer the question.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 1)

Loyalty got us Bremer and Brownie.  I am tired of loyalty, I need me some competence.


'The only people for me are the mad ones, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing ...'
by stryan on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 1)

I think you are right and I'm a male. I think you should add the name Bill Clinton. Today he has brought up the Sniper fire in Bosnia controversy. He's trying to defend his wife and he should be muzzled. This will not help senator Clinton who I think would be a much better President compared to Bill. What's happened to him?


by Politicalslave on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:19:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (none / 0)

Well, call me a sexist, but I think she should have found some talented, experienced female campaign strategists.

Talented?  Yes.  Experienced?  Ideally of course.  Female?  Why?
McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She had Patti Solis DOyle. (2.00 / 8)

So I don't know about that.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:24:15 AM EST

Re: She had Patti Solis DOyle. (2.00 / 4)

Yes, but Patti gets the boot and the 4 Bozos stay on the bus. What's with that?


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess Donna Brazile was out of the question. (2.00 / 8)

Heh.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She had Patti Solis DOyle. (2.00 / 3)

I think the thing is once you start a campaign strategy with it's theme, narratives and policy emphasis you are to some extent locked in. Despite the changes in her camapign she is pretty much stuck with the themes of exprience despite learning latter this was a "change" election.


by TMP on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She had Patti Solis DOyle. (2.00 / 8)

There's also the problem of the chief strategist in charge of message and the chief pollster being the same person.

Mark Penn decides to campaign on experience and inevitability, and then runs polls to prove his own point.

She also underestimated how many people held her war vote against her.  Recall that when she started out, her prescription for ending the war was "I'll talk to the joint chiefs".   (That's actually still what it is, but it's cloaked in much more dovish language).


by Mostly on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She had Patti Solis DOyle. (2.00 / 2)

I think that was a key mistake.  No way should the pollster and the chief strategist be the same person.  That was a plain dumb move.  


by vbdietz on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The point is... (2.00 / 1)

Solis Doyle, nor Maggie Williams ever had the experience to run a national campaign.  IT shows.  Yes, Maggie Williams is another Clinton loyalist, she was her private secretary, if I am not mistaken, but the Williams never ran a national campaign.  All this brings back and up the question of competence in HRCs hirings.  Ramblings of GWB is in comparison and warranted.  He is the one KNOWN to hire incompentent people and look what they have done from their decisions in this country.  From Katrina, Attorney General, Iraq.  All incompetent people, do we need to go down this road again?  And though there were some good things in the former Clinton Administration, there were bad things too.  One is the chaotic mess the former Clinton Administration always ran under and why many talented people ended up leaving that administration because of it.  If the general public after GWB want to go back to that, it will be gridlock again in Washington.♠


by tracey webb on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:10:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Another hit diary? (2.00 / 0)

How many of them is that for you?

Up to 100 yet?

It's so funny, becuase I certainly will never endorse Obama because of attacks on Clinton.  I have little doubt Rospars and Felsen like these, but I doubt their effectiveness.  

I think it's just taunting and immaturity, just like the Clinton supporters who write odious attacks on Senator Obama.

These were the Obama campaign talking points a few days ago, weren't they?  

It's so boring.  


by TomP on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another hit diary? (2.00 / 1)

This diary is in response to endless hokey claims by Clinton supporters about Obama not wanting votes counted. I guess on this site that constitutes an "attack diary".


by kitebro on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:50:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, you assume (2.00 / 0)

I support Clinton.

A hit diary in "response" is still a hit diary.

Yes, I know, Clinton, the woman is evil, Barack is all good.   Indeed, Barack is a blessing form God:

The Gift of Barack Obama
by niaman [Subscribe]
Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:10:55 AM PDT
Two weeks ago Michael Kinsley was a guest on Charlie Rose. He was asked his opinion of the Democratic primary. And here I paraphrase. He responded that he thought Obama would win the primary. He said that this was because, sooner or later, the Democratic party would realize what a gift they had been given in Barack Obama. This is right on so many levels.

niaman's diary :: ::
Barack Obama is a gift to the Democratic party, he is a gift to his supporters, he is a gift to a new generation of political enthusiasts, and I feel he is a gift to me personally. This is not because I drank the Kool-Aid and became an unthinking adorer. It is because I seriously questioned whether the Democratic party could ever produce an inspirational leader who could succeed on the national stage without abandoning progressive Democratic ideals. I fully understand inspirational leadership is in itself insufficient to guarantee a successful presidency, or even warrant someone's vote. But an inspirational leader, with good political instincts, demonstrated judgment, an unflappable temperament, rare authenticity and the ability to generate enthusiasm in a new generation, can claim extraordinary an undeniable qualifications. The campaign itself has demonstrated the candidates managerial skills, and his ability to handle pressure and controversy, as well as his ability to learn and grow. Without even getting into policy, I believe the case can be made that Barack Obama is the most exceptional candidate the Democratic party has produced in several generations, and that an Obama presidency would have the most potential for success domestically and internationally in some time.

All so silly.  


by TomP on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:30:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you assume (none / 0)

On this site the hit diaries are almost exclusively anti_Obama. Stop whining.


by kitebro on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tom, do you disagree with the idea that Clinton (2.00 / 3)

... failed to run a campaign in multiple states? That her campaign staff thought they didn't need to compete?

Had Edwards done better in Iowa, do you think he would have contested the later caucuses more thoroughly than Clinton?

Edwards and his staff were masters of the caucus process. I can't imagine they would have acted as arrogantly as Camp Clinton in thinking they didn't need to bother with those pesky "small states."


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another hit diary? (2.00 / 1)

Hit diary?  Please.  If anything is UNTRUE about this diary, please point is out and back it up with LINKS.  From what I read, this is not a hit diary and you seem to be whining, from what I don't know, but whining none the less.


by tracey webb on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I fail to see how this (none / 0)

is a hit diary.  Your so called neutrality is sometimes in question when you make ridiculous claims like this.  Especially about a diary that analyzed verifiable evidence.  This is tame is condemnation compared to the endless ad hominem, ad hoc diaries that a select few put up about Obama.  Instead of making baseless accusations try to dispute the diarists conclusions.


by SocialDem on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:19:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd like to hear a serious post-mortem analysis (2.00 / 11)

of what went wrong, sometime after the brouhaha is over and we can all discuss it without yelling.  I would like to give Obama credit for being an oustanding candidate, but I can't help but feel that Hillary's loss is all her own doing.

My own vigorous opposition to Hillary came about because of her and Bill's boosting for the war, and a number of other items, like Bill's excuse making for Bush about Katrina and the WMDs, over the years.  So it was a long time in the making.  But Hillary was way ahead in the polls as we entered the last part of 2007, and she just went poof, up in smoke, very quickly, going from an unbeatable candidate to a losing candidate.

The Democratic Party and the country have changed since 2000.  I think they just never grasped that.  It explains a lot more than just their loss in 2008.  It explains a great deal of their behavior.  The fixation on DLC type strategy backfired because we have all had to move past the '90s in the face of Bush's overreaching.  Many people were so anxious to remove the current status quo that they couldn't find appealing the idea of reinstating the previous status quo.  


by Dumbo on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:36:46 AM EST

Re: I'd like to hear a serious post-mortem analysi (2.00 / 3)

This won't be a serious post-mortem analysis, but I'm looking forward to Ed Norton's documentary.  As soon as this whole thing is over.


by Mostly on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:10:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

From a basic marketing perspective (none / 0)

It seems she never really did a good SWOT analysis of her candidacy.  A lot of what she's done has been great; but IMO, she slightly overestimated her strengths, grossly underestimated her weaknesses and threats to her image.  Not working harder in the caucus states could fall under lost opportunities.  Really just a sub-par marketing job overall.  

And she's still a contender.  Not bad, really.  If nothing else, that's a good measure of how well she is liked.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From a basic marketing perspective (none / 0)

It's no secret that one of the hallmarks of Mark Penn is his reliance on "media sensitive" voters.  That's industry speak for "stupid".

It's how she can do the "shame on you, barack obama" bit, when the only problem with his mailer was that it quoted her as calling NAFTA a "boon", instead of the more acurate "good for America".

That stuff plays in Ohio.


by Mostly on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd like to hear a serious post-mortem analysi (none / 0)

Actually, this primary is the stuff upon which volumes of poli sci books and lectures are written.  It will be dissected and studied on a scholarly level for years and years to come...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 11)

Yeah, I always hear how hard she will work for us, but she barely worked for herself in the month of February apparently.


by mefck on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:37:33 AM EST

Re: The Clinton Campaign: Too Arrogant to Work for (2.00 / 5)

Where did Clinton's $150 million go? And she has not  been paying some of her bills too....


by TMP on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:40:45 AM EST

WOW I didn't (2.00 / 3)

 realize that this was over...did I miss something, hmm seem to remember 10 states left and a few million people yet to vote. THen you can talk about post mortem, but it might not be hers...


by artsykr on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:57:47 AM EST

Re: WOW I didn't (2.00 / 2)

A post mortem isn't only applicable to the loser of the contest; I think they are useful tools for any process that could use improving. Even you would have to admit that Hillary's campaign could've used a little improving.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WOW I didn't (2.00 / 1)

If an election had 80+% reporting and your candidate needs to outperform what she had in any one of the first 40 counties in essentially every one of the remaining counties, including several that are tilted heavily toward your opponent, to have a realistic chance you'd probably admit you'd lost right?


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:41:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

!0 states? (none / 0)

did I miss something?  Guam and Puerto Rico became states.  Guess I need to start paying more attention.


by newdealer on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:36:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

10 States? (none / 0)

Guam and Puerto Rico became states?  It must be me that missed soemthing.  Guess I need to start paying more attention.


by newdealer on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:5