Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, the worse she does

During this long primary campaign, Hillary Clinton has always been penned-in (no pun intended) by her own history. Years of being a target by media sources and Republicans raised her unfavorability numbers to near 50%, usually hovering around 45%-48%. This history makes it difficult for her to go on the attack because to do so plays directly into her unfavorables.

Clinton supporters have told me, over and over, that Clinton is a "known quantity," and, therefore, voters who don't like her already don't like her. In other words, her negative numbers were topped out.

Frankly, I never bought that argument. Her numbers could always go higher. And they have.

Which brings us to Obama's "bitter" comment...

As I wrote in a number of early posts here by Hillary loyalists pumping Obama's "bitter" comment:

We'll see how it plays out. But I'm wondering if Hillary's fierce and repeated denunciations play into negative perceptions of her already held by many voters.

As the diaries here pumping this story continued to fill the recommended list, I wrote:

As I noted in one of alegre's numerous posts

... on this subject, regardless of what one thinks of what Obama said, Hillary and her surrogates, particularly a hack like Vilsack who is counting desperately on a Hillary win so he can be the next Secretary of Education (or, who knows, maybe even VP pick), are at risk of overplaying their hand on this.

Hillary has high negatives for a reason. If voters don't think this as serious as Hillary and company continue to claim it is, this may come back to bite her.

We'll see. Judging by the Sunday morning shows and today's PA newspaper endorsements, Clinton and her pals may be in danger of simply looking desperate.

by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:10:22 PM CST

I added in that same comment string:

As I noted, the next few days will tell...

I have no control over what anyone says. It appears Hillary thinks she's onto something big. I am not convinced, judging by reactions in PA.

"Mountain" and "molehill" come to mind. Maybe this will really be Obama's undoing. Who knows?

Still, I think Hillary runs the risk of:

1. Appearing desperate, and
 2. Playing into her negatives.

by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:17:26 PM CST

A look at the Rasmussen rolling favorable/unfavorable numbers show that Clinton's unfavorable number has dipped below 50% only eight days since February 11. And, in fact, her unfavorables have gone from 51% on April 13, the day Obama's comments broke, to 56% today.

Couple that with all of the latest Pennsylvania polls showing little or no movement among the electorate (and, yes, Clinton is headed for a win with only the margin to be determined), and Obama's continued strength in the Gallup, Rasmussen, Reuters and ABC/WaPo national Dem nomination polls, and the conclusion is that Hillary going on the attack drives up her unfavorables.

The boomerang effect that is unique to Clinton because of her history appears to be in full effect.

Out of the three news stories that have dominated the primary campaign over the last several weeks -- Wright, Tuzla and "bitter" -- it appears that Tuzla has had the biggest impact on the electorate. Today's ABC/Washington Post poll includes this paragraph:

Clinton is viewed as "honest and trustworthy" by just 39 percent of Americans, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll, compared with 52 percent in May 2006. Nearly six in 10 said in the new poll that she is not honest and trustworthy. And now, compared with Obama, Clinton has a deep trust deficit among Democrats, trailing him by 23 points as the more honest, an area on which she once led both Obama and John Edwards.

The Tuzla fable played to Hillary's biggest weakness among voters: the belief that she is not honest/can't be trusted.

I know Clinton backers will tell me that Michelle Obama's comments, the Wright story and "bitter" will doom Obama in the general, but that is a hypothetical. He may be doomed, he may not be doomed. But he has shown an ability to respond to these crises which inevitably arise in a campaign.

What is a fact are Clinton's rock-solid negatives. And, yes, they can go up. Because voters have preconceived notions about her and every time she attacks or gets caught in even the mildest inaccuracy, all of these doubts about her bubble to the surface again.

Now, I think McCain is an eminently beatable candidate. Regardless of what polls show today, McCain has yet to be tested. (We've been too busy in the primary.) Frankly, he is a lousy candidate and a lousy campaigner in a very, very bad year for Republicans. The economy is not going to be improving before the general. We know Iraq will be the same, or, more likely, worse. McCain is the second coming of Bob Dole and he will meet the same fate as Dole, regardless of who the Democrats nominate.

But Clinton is hamstrung by her past. Would Hillary beat McCain? Of course! Even with her high negatives. But for her campaign to be making the argument that Obama is unelectable is laughable in light of her own problems. And arguing that Obama is not electable doesn't, conversely, mean that she's more electable.

The flip side every superdelegate should be asking her/himself when Camp Clinton makes this argument in private conversations is, "But what are Hillary's chances versus Obama's?"

Given the last six weeks, I'd say Obama's chances are better than Clinton's. And both of their chances of becoming president are better than McCain's.



Display:


Bob's Dilemma (1.22 / 22)

Hey Bob-- the more negative you go on Clinton, the worse your writing gets.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:41:41 PM EST

Brahaaaa!!!! (2.00 / 0)

To paraphrase Barack: now that's rich!

Pot, meet kettle.


by John Campanelli on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:30:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry.. To me, its's Obama folks who seem the most (1.33 / 6)

BITTER and negative...

Obama wants America to accept LESS because his corporate buddies want MORE and in their view, both can't have slices of the shrinking pie.

Hillary Clinton doesn't see it as a zero sum game. She has a vision that rebuilds American prosperity with education and smart use of technology. She has a better grasp of whats required and its obvious.

Obama represents a subtle, high gloss denial.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Corporate buddies (2.00 / 2)

Very true. The front page of USA Today says

Obama tied to lobbyists, but boasts of not taking money

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el ection2008/2008-04-15-obama_N.htm


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what my alternative?? (2.00 / 4)

Hillary? who takes lobbyist money and is proud of it?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 5)

Technically, the more negative Clinton goes on Obama, the more her favorability plummets.  

Ironically, the more you sling silly insults, the more your credibility plummets.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The main reason why Hillary is not perceived as .. (2.00 / 4)

honest and trustworthy, in my opinion, is not the Tuzla untruths, but because of her faux outrage and concern trolling about the Wright and Bitter comments.  I believe that most people see through her obvious (to me) dissingenuineness.  It is an authenticity problem.  


by xtrarich on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 2)

People on this site are so delusional, it is really a pity now.  No wonder the MSM don't get narratives from this site, look at it.  Most of the Clinton diaries are so poorly sourced and ridiculous this site has gone down the tubes.  Bob Johnson is spot on.  In the end, people do not vote for politicians they view dishonest.  And with all the kerfuffle, the only candidate that had looked at challenges in his campaign head on is Barack Obama.

That blatant lie of Hillary on Tuzla, just sunk her campaign.  That video tape said it all.  She is DONE.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 1)

Obama is losing to McCain in New York, PA, OH and in Florida by 15 pts (Hillary beats McCain by 1 in the same poll.

Hillary is beating Obama by 36 pts in Kentucky. What makes you think that Obama has a snowball's chance in hell of beating McCain when he can't even beat him in blue states?

You are dillusional if you think Obama is going to win in November. Working-class whites have abandoned him as well as Independents and open-minded Republicans. Hispanics like McCain and love Clinton. Obama needs about 70% of the hispanic vote to make up for the white vote he will lose from past nominees. It won't happen.

Something you have forgotten or never knew: Democrats lose and lose big when we nominate someone who is perceived to be as liberal as Obama. Yes, you feel good now, but will be heart-broken when the results come in. This election will be like 1972, 1984, 1988 and 2004. With the exception of Kerry who lost to a chimp, we got beaten badly in each race. The all looked good up until the convention.

Show me a Democrat who loses in April Polls to a Republican and I will show you a loser in November. It is you who has your head in the sand.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, then (2.00 / 1)

we definitely can't nominate Hillary. She does worse than Obama, as you know, of course.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, then (2.00 / 0)

Actually, she does better in important swing states like PA, OH, Fl, MI.

McCain beats Obama in Florida by 15 pts. Hillary beats McCain there in the same poll.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, of course. (2.00 / 2)

"States That Matter".

However, overall, she does worse than he does, which you can confirm via those little map thingies on the front page.

I really wonder sometimes whether you folks are even trying anymore. It's all "well, if you just look at this tightly selected and completely irrelevant set of circumstances, Hillary wins", whether that has any bearing on real-world outcomes or not.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pretty thin gruel (2.00 / 0)

alright.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Dilemma: He Lost the Debate (2.00 / 0)

Hillary's Reviews Are In: `The Winner,' `Strong Presence,' `In Her Element'

Hillary dominates Philadelphia focus group. "NYDIA HAN: The real take away is this. We now know who won the debate according to our focus group. Take a look. Senator Clinton is the debate winner, at least according to our focus group. 23% believe Senator Obama won while 50% believed Senator Clinton won." [WPVI Post-Debate Analysis, 4/16/08]

ABC News' Rick Klein - `Clinton is back to the strong presence we saw early in the cycle.' [ABC News Political Radar, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Chuck Todd - Obama `did not have a good night.' [MSNBC Post-Debate Analysis, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Chuck Todd--Obama's answer on Ayers and the flag `were simply weak.' "His answer on Ayers and the flag question were simply weak; He seemed unprepared for them; Kinda surprising because he normally has a decent rant against "old politics" and yet "old politics" questions seemed to stump him." [NBC First Read, 4/16/08]

The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder - [T]here's no way Obama could fared worse. [The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder, 4/16/08]

Washington Post' Chris Cillizza-- Obama `struggled quite a bit' when asked about Rev. Wright. "...He struggled quite a bit more when asked to answer for Wright, his former pastor." [Washington Post, The Fix, 4/16/08]

New York Times' Katharine Seeyle: Hillary's `in her element as she goes into details.' "She's becoming expansive, seemingly in her element as she goes into details; Mr. Obama does not look as thrilled to be still standing there." [New York Times, The Caucus, 4/16/08]

Talking Points Memo's Josh Marshall - Hillary `certainly seems more self-assured.' "She certainly seems more self-assured on the Iran question than Obama did. The question of extending an American security umbrella to Israel is very dicey. And he could clearly see he was on delicate territory." [Talking Points Memo, 4/16/08]

Philadelphia Inquirer blog - `Obama is again less certain, and rambles a bit.' "Obama is again less certain, and rambles a bit when asked about the Washington D.C. gun ban. Gibson asks him to deny that he has ever advocated a complete ban on hand guns in 1996. Obama says no. But whatever the truth, no other answer is possible." [Philadelphia Inquirer Blog, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Matthew Berger - Obama `tried to have it both ways' with Israel. "Obama's answer on an Iranian attack on Israel tried to seem to have it both ways: highlight his support for Israel but not lock him into treating an attack on Israel like an attack on the U.S. But it may have looked more like a no because it wasn't a firm yes. Clinton's answer seemed more direct." [NBC First Read, 4/16/08]

And, finally, the coup de grace:

Barack says: Debating is HARD WORK!

And, he had to answer, like, the hardest questions ever, and it made him cross and defensive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvUNFmB7J l8


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Depressing News (2.00 / 2)

In a head to head matchup between John McCain and Barack Obama, McCain leads 49% to 39% with 12% undecided.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article s/docs/SV_PAApril16_08.html


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:46:05 PM EST

Re: Depressing News (2.00 / 2)

If the election were tomorrow, or even week or month, there would be cause for concern. But polls this far from any election are as meaningless as teets on a boar.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (1.40 / 5)

Yes, voters would have 7 more months between now and November to explore and exploit Obama's Rezko connection, Rev. Wright and his church's IRS investigation, Obama's foolish elitist statements, etc.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:55:12 PM EST (2.00 / 3)

I'm sure you'll be doing your best to promote those topics, but Obama has already neutralized them -- and hillary's attacks have actually been helpful by running those topics into the ground. Keep up the good work!


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (1.40 / 5)

Rezko will only get MORE publicity as the trial progresses.

Rev. Wright's will only get MORE publicity as the IRS investigation proceeds.

Obama's elitist attitude will only become MORE pronouced as he continues to hammer on "bitter" folks who turn to religion and guns, not to mention his "typical white people" sterotypes.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no Rezko story (2.00 / 3)

Unless you know something the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times don't.  

As far as the other ones, the polls bear it out that they are not as significant as many have hoped.

You are going to say something unsubstantiated to try to refute this, like nuh-uh, and that's fine.  I just wanted to correct your spin.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I HOPE McCain wants to make (2.00 / 3)

Ethics an issue.  That will work out for him even better than it did for Clinton.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 0)

>I'm sure you'll be doing your best to promote those topics, but Obama has already neutralized them -- and hillary's attacks have actually been helpful by running those topics into the ground. Keep up the good work!

I wish you were right but the way I see it, Obama seems as if he's already blown it by his various misstatements.

You think the GOP is going to SIT on that if Obama is the nominee? NO WAY.

They are just giving him an easy ride now because they think he will be easier to beat.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 4)

You're under a severe delusion if you think Hillary is somehow immune to Republican attacks. And her ability to respond to campaign crises has been piss poor this whole campaign.


by TheSilverMonkey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (none / 0)

The delusion is that Obama, unvetted and untested, can win the GE.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 5)

You need to read this.  Untested, unvetted, after the Clintons, please.  Face it, your girl ran a piss poor campaign.  She is barely hanging on.  Out of money, etc.  She just ran a 90s campaign and got beaten by a 2008 machine, called grassroots.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no Rezko story (2.00 / 1)

That person has been saying that about Rezko since 2007.  NEXT.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

Wish hard enough and maybe it will come true.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 4)

Rezko is a dead horse, Wright is on a 24/7 loop in Faux, and fatigue is already setting in.

On the other hand "Truth-Gate" hasn't even showed up on Rush's or Hannity's radar, because they, and the rest of the Republics got the memo "We know how to run against the Clinton(s), let's knock Obama out now.

Funny thing is, from the Clinton Supporters, all along was this hewn cry "he's never been vetted, he can't take a punch..."

Now, with Wright_Gate and Bitter_Gate getting 24/7 coverage, and his national numbers going up, it's:

"Wait till they use it against him in the fall?"

It's always THE NEXT big hit that is going to finish Obama with you folks.

Repeat after me: Hillary had a 20+Lead in Penn, and EVEN WITH Wright and Bitter gate, she probably blew half of that....

It's her last REAL great stand, she will get crushed in NC and Obama will fight her to a standstill in Indiana....

But, since you folks think Bitter Gate is the crusher, that won't happen, and Hillary will win
Penn and Indiana by big double digits, right?

He's TOAST right?

Or, is there something magical about the fall and the Republics, something different then what they are doing now?

It's going to be WORSE when Obama is running ads against this assualt, and every Democrat in Congress has his back?

It's going to be worse when he finally gets on a stage and debates poor muddled John McCain, who can't tell the Shias from the Sunnis?

Sheesh, This IS his test of fire, and his numbers keep going up....


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

He hasn't even BEGUN to get tested yet. Clinton's endured 15 YEARS of Rethuggery, and is still standing tall against their smears.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When has she run in a national election? (2.00 / 3)


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

When has she NOT been in the national news?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:56:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 2)

Dream on, KnowVox.....

We Obama supporters KNOW it's going to be a war in the fall.

Of the bigger delusions from the Hillary supporters is

"She has been totally vetted and beaten all the Republic attacks!'

Yeah, she won IN NY against RICK LAZIO!

She hasn't BEGUN to be attacked by Hannity et all on Truth-gate?

Remember Al Gore Invented the Internet?

How's this ad strike you...

Fade up to John McCain in the Hanoi Hilton

Voice Over "John McCain, shot down from 30,000 feet spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton..."

Cross fade to Hillary on the tarmac in Bosnia...

Voice up of Hillary decribing running for cover from the Snipers...

Fade to her lollygagging, talking to the soldiers...

Fade to John McCain getting off that plane, in his dress whites, weighing about 105 pounds, with his arm in the sling, Saluting the welcoming officer...

Voice over: "When it comes to trusting a Commander in Chief, who do you want in office?

The man who withstood torture to stand with his brothers in arms...

Or someone that can't tell Sniper Fire from a Sunny Day..."

Fade to black..,,,


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

How's this ad strike you...

Fade in to show 3,000 dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq, and thousands more injured.

Clip of McCain advocating Iraq war for "another 100 years"

Clip of Clinton: "We will begin redeploying our troops within 60 days after I'm elected."

Fade to thundering applause and cheers...


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, except that ad works even better for Obama, since he didn't authorize the war?

Still, my point was, She WILL be attacked, and Truth-Gate will be it.....

You keep wanting to claim she has some inherit advantage over Obama against attack?

All your add proved is BOTH CLinton and Obama will run a "100" years war ad against McCain?


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

Obama didn't lift a finger to end the war. All he gave was a speech. Where were his protest rallies? His consistent votes to CUT funding? He might not have authorized, but he sure took no concrete steps to end it. You ad was attempting to prove McCain will hammer Clinton, when it's Obama who's more vulnerable.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 1)

This is about Ads, Vox, not your opinion....

And, agian SHOW ME how Obama is more vunerable, cause its just your opinion that he is.

My ad was a direct hit to Clinton, and I easily morphed your ad to Obama, and it is just as effective?

Ah, but I get it. You HAVE to cling to this nutty idea that she is "fully vetted" and will just breeze through the GE, and Obama will get hammered...

Funny, you Clinton supporters claim we live in a dream world, but WE Obama supporters KNOW a ShitStorm is coming...

In Hillaryland, on one hand, they whine consistantly that the media hates her, then they turn around and say "FULLY VETTED-BATTLE TESTED-SHE'S TOOK IT ALL AND IS STILL STANDING!"


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has never run in a national election. (2.00 / 2)

She hasn't run a very good primary campaign. She is not Bill. She was supposed to walk away with this thing. She told Stephanopoulos that it would all be over by February 5.

You keep touting her as if she is invincible.

She has proven that she is not.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has been constantly in the national (2.00 / 0)

spotlight, and you might even argue that her senate campaigns have been nationalized.

Bob, this sort of nyah nyah diary plays much better at Big Orange than here.  It's not that we don't want to discuss the issues, and it's not that we as Clinton supporters don't see her negatives.  She is not my dream candidate; Edwards was as close as there was to that.  But you're more interested in stirring the pot than discussing the issues.  If you want to discuss the issues, fine.  Let's talk about negatives of both candidates:  Clinton's association with the free trade deals of Clinton I; Obama's unrealistic idea of health care without national enrollment (not to mention recycling Harry and Louise -- remember them?)

But otherwise, let's neither of us waste the bandwidth, huh?


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not 'stirring the pot.' (2.00 / 1)

I'm pointing out that, despite the hyperbole here from Hillary backers, that Obama's comment killed his campaign.

And the fact that the Clinton campaign claimed the remark (and other issues) made Obama "unelectable" is laughable.

These numbers show the odds of either Obama or Clinton being "unelectable" lean heavily towards Clinton, despite what the Clinton loyalists say or write.

Have you been telling alegre that she's "wasting bandwidth?"

Didn't think so...


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure I'm reading you right. (none / 0)

I don't think his comment 'killed his campaign,' and even if I don't like Rev. Wright, the fact that he was volunteer combat medic makes him a better man than 99% of the Rethugs in this country.

I am against forgone conclusions, 'electability' arguments if you will, in the primary or general.  I think the Dem nomination is still an open story, no matter what 'assured victory' narratives are being played (mostly by your guys, as it happens).  

As for the general, McCain has one thing going for him, and that's that the MSM are his lickspittle posse.  He's hung Bush's war around his own neck, like an albatross; and it could sink him, despite his little buddies.  I think Hillary has a better chance of beating him for one simple reason: she has faced and survived the full onslaught of the Rethuglican hate machine.  As for Rezko, it's probably a non-story, but so was Whitewater, and that likely cost us the presidency in 2000, since it kept Bill Clinton from campaigning much.  A win in Arkansas would have settled it for us, regardless of FL.

Anyhow, I can see Obama beating McCain, but I think Hillary has a better chance, and I think (we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this) that she'd make a better president.

BTW, some of Alegre's posts here were over the top, but nothing like what I've seen at Big Orange.  Remember the 'blackening of Obama?' on the front page?  C'mon man; and I'm half of a mixed-race marriage, too.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You haven't been paying attention. (none / 0)

Until the moderators here put the clamps on a few folks like Larry Johnson, susanhu and Universal, this place was a hotbed of red-hot burning Obama hate.

But maybe you missed all that.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama hate? (2.00 / 0)

Sorry that's all you can see here.  Too bad the moderators haven't acted to quell the Hillary hate at Big Orange, which is why I don't post there anymore, with the possible exception of scientific/environmental issues, such as 'California Shock and Awe.'  You could look it up, but I won't hold my breath.

Say what you will, this place is still more open than Dkos to a diversity opinions, whether they happen to be yours or not -- or mine.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

She's still standing. With an unfavorable rating of 56%, the standing tall part is highly debatable. Those 15+ years in the public eye have taken their toll - and any abatement in right-wing attacks was a result of their diminished influence after Bill's term ended.

You expect the abatement to continue if she's the nominee? Do you really think the right-wing attack machine has bought into those "fully vetted!" claims? Do you really think that once Hillary's the nominee, they're going to pack up and go home?
Or will it rather prompt a slew of grand-daddy of all "anti-Billary" fundraisers, coupled with a screeching Limbaugh and his henchmen with their "America Held Hostage!" reunions?

Sadly, campaign rote doesn't hold much water outside of true believer circles.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Fortunately, the vast right wing conspiracy doesn't hold much water outside of THEIR true believers circle, as evidenced by the fact that despite their continued smears, she continues to garner world wide respect, knows & understands the players in Congress/business & how to work with them, and is an excellent debator.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

She is distrusted by more than 50% of her fellow citizens.  The world has no vote and the "players in Congress/business" has only a minority vote.  If a person is the best, most talented, most qualified person to be president, but she loses the election, then what's the point of having her as the nominee?  BTW, I don't think she is "the best, most talented, most qualified person to be president."


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Yes, she's weathered the storms well enough to have won the NY Senate race. I'm sure you'll agree that the country's demographics don't mirror New York's. And at some point, even those sympathetic to her get scandal-weary.

The "fully vetted" claims aren't even holding up during the primary season - witness Tuzlagate and the latest "screw-em" brouhaha. Remember that these occured without the involvement of the right wing dirt machine. Just picture the firestorm of distortion, innuendo and outright lies that will be coming her way once that thing gets cranked up.

Further this isn't just a case of whether those right wing slime attempts will be effective outside their circles. Her very presence in the race will motivate conservatives to come out in droves to vote against her. Clinton's very presence in this race would rouse them like smelling salts to the unconscious, her candidacy itself to them a battle cry.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Oh please, someone give this person a reality drink.  Really, your nonsense is that nonsense.  The dance was over after Wisconsin, when she sat down like a dead dog and let Obama run the numbers up.

Finally, her handling of her campaign is abysmal, and this is being nice.  It is a view of how she handles personnel, people, issues, flare-ups, and she has failed that test miserably.

Sorry, being married to a former president is not enough, she just ain't Bill.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right... (none / 0)

she could not beat them so she joined them


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

Don't explain that to them.  They wrapped themselves in poll numbers all 2007 and see where it has gotten them.  NO WHERE.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

That may be the weakness that brought the Clintons down as much as any -- believing that poll numbers in themselves are what win primaries (and elections).


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

That may be the weakness that brought the Clintons down as much as any -- believing that poll numbers in themselves are what win primaries (and elections).


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 0)

losing by 3.  Also their history has shown a tilt toward republicans when comparing them to almost any other poll.

check the history out at
http://fivethirthyeight.com/


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (1.25 / 4)

Yes, people keep forgetting the only credible information source in the known universe is Obama.com


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pollsters how about looking at the source (none / 0)

objectively instead of outright denying it.  Clinton does do better in PA than Obama, but both will most likely still win it.  S.V. is a Republican polling company and tilts towards them, just like PPP is a democratic pollster and tilts towards them.

How about a fact based discussion...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 2)

Yes, let's have a few facts:

Clinton does do better in PA than Obama, but both will most likely still win it.

Where's your "facts" that Obama will win PA?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about (none / 0)

the average of a majority of polling data giving him a slight lead.  Or Ed Rendell's words, I like Ed Rendell and think he is a good surrogate he plays tough but fair.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about (2.00 / 2)

I like these endorsements better:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/endor sements/


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about (2.00 / 1)

Ed Rendell is on that list too, genius.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also RCP (2.00 / 1)

average:  both lead in PA, both lose in FL, Clinton wins in OH, but Obama leads in WA, WI, OR


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)

No poll, especially ones 6 months before an election, can be considered factual as to what will happen. They're a statistical guess.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 1)

So doens't that make this wholy diary, or any diary based upon polling data this far out an excerise in futility?


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)


Polls reflect current opinion, not future opinion.
The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 1)

But that's my whole point. As you noted above, what is happening currently is not necessarily indicitive of what is to come in Novemeber. Thus, does it really matter what a candidates negatives are now?


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)

Hillary's negatives have been high for many years. That may indicate something worth considering.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 0)

Well, KV, he IS "special" as his wife keeps claiming. What more do we need to know?


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Too many (around here at least) seem to think the only source of credible info is freerepublic.com --  judging by the way you they parrot its type of scurrilous attacks against Obama.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 2)

As I note in my post, McCain hasn't been tested at all yet. We have been preoccupied with the primary.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:09 PM (2.00 / 3)

Right now it's effectively a 3-way contest which gives McInsane an unnatural advantge. When Hillary finally gives up the ghost, I'm guessing Obama will jump to big leads nationally and in states.

(That's what what happened when Perot first dropped out in 1992. Clinton had been in a long primary (with many "scandals" and bitter attacks against him) and was in third place; but he leapfrogged into the lead, which he never relenquished.)


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Would the same thing apply for Hillary? (2.00 / 0)

Polls Ive seen show YES, she would..

And her healthcare plan would mean thousands of dollars a year more in the pockets of people with pre-existing conditions, who will find that Obama's plan doesn't help them much at all, because it makes healthcare affordable FOR EMPLOYERS by shifting costs TO THEM.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Would the same thing apply for Hillary? (none / 0)

Your reply doesn't match up with my comment.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 0)

I disagree that McCain hasn't been tested. He's been through a two hellacious GOP nomination fights so far and has been a national figure since the 90s (and not always in a good way) yet he keeps bouncing back.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This cycle. (2.00 / 1)

Sure, he came back in the GOP primary against an incredibly weak field. But he has not faced an ounce of scrutiny yet from the media or the Democrats because all the focus has been on Clinton-Obama.

The time will come when the spotlight gets turned on McCain. And I predict he will go down like Bob Dole.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This cycle. (2.00 / 1)

An INCREDIBLY weak field.  Like Kerry's field in 2004 - I like Howard Dean, but you know.

Here's another difference between Obama and Kerry/Gore - Obama has actually won a competitive primary.  Let's not forget Gore was beaten by Dukakis.  Yes, that Dukakis.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This cycle. (1.00 / 1)

Imploding opposition and having your opponents thrown off a ballot is winning a primary? I know Obama supporters have some strange definitions of "hard" but this is really out there.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's beating Hillary. (2.00 / 2)

I think that was the point.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's beating Hillary. (2.00 / 0)

No the point was that he has won democratic primaires in the past. The voting isn't done yet and it's unlikely that Obama is going to win PA. Remember demographics are destiny and he has demographic problems.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And 'Numbers are just words' or something? (2.00 / 1)

Whatever. She can hang in there as long as she wants but she won't be the nominee.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And 'Numbers are just words' or something? (1.00 / 1)

Really? We'll see. What is losing PA going to do? Make Obama even more "electable" in the definition of his supporters?

I know it's likely that Obama is going to be the nominee. Too bad he's unelectable.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unelectable based on what? (2.00 / 4)

Give me a break. Hillary is closer to unelectable than Obama by a wide margin. How does a candidate with unfavorables well above 50% win an election?

Obama gives us a shot. Hillary could win, too. But the odds with Obama are better under almost any current measure.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's beating Hillary. (none / 0)

Bob Johnson is correct: I'm talking about this primary.  


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (none / 0)

The John McCain of 2008 is a shadow of the man then, he has spent YEARS kissing the butt of the RR, and, sure, the MSM loves him, but Obama will cut him to ribbons in the debates.

He ran against the weakest group of looser ever assembled by a major party? Rudy? Mitt? Fred?

Hell, all he had to do was hang around, and even Huckabee beat those clowns?

He is stuck with some nightmare version of Reaganomics, which even Ronnie had to abandon when the stagflation hit.

But, McCain HAS to stay there, or his own party, which barely trusts him, will turn it's back?

Hell, he HAS to play the war card, and all Obama has to do is ask:

"What do you want your tax dollars spent on?  I'm betting NOT filling the already surplused coffers in Iraq?"

He can only play the hero card, and when gas is $4.50 a gallon and a half gallon of milk is about the same, no one will care he was the hero in Nam....


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 1)

It should be fun to test him since he's screwing up all over the place when there isn't even any pressure yet.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ABC/WaPo poll showed HRC's Negatives at 56% (none / 0)

That's an insurmountable obstacle for any candidate to overcome in a race for president.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that just PA? (2.00 / 1)

I ask because Obama beats McSame while McSame beats HRC nationally.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/national.html


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

(and, yes, Clinton is headed for a win with only the margin to be determined)

It seems like a million years ago that everyone was saying, "and, yes, Clinton is headed for the nomination with only the margin to be determined."

But it was only a few short months ago. So much for surefire predictions.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:46:21 PM EST

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 3)

Here's a surefire prediction:

If Obama can't win two out of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida (which in his case means if he can't win Ohio and Pennsylvania) he will lose the election.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

So, whoever wins the primary in a state wins the election?


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)

Show me where Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania are NOT crucial swing states. Clinton beats McCain in all three.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)

Depends. CO, VA, IA, WI, MO are in play with Obama.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 3)

You can't be serious. Next you'll be arguing KANSAS is "in play."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Why would I do that?

Obama is up in CO, WI, & IA right now. He's within striking range in VA. Only MO seems far but he hasn't begun to campaign against McSame yet. Or at least the media hasn't yet turned its focus there.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please, save your fingers. (none / 0)

The facts just bounce off KnowVox.


by McNasty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Rasmussen shows McCain beating Obama in Wisconsin, 48 to 46. RCP average shows McCain beating Obama by 5 in Iowa. Rasmussen shows CO a toss up.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.

Do you really not understand what's going to happen once the Democrats have an official nominee?  The numbers now are incredibly encouraging.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Do the math. Do you not understand that even carrying Iowa (8), Colorado (7) and WI (11) doesn't add up to PA (27), let alone FL (17) and OH (25)? This isn't about the NUMBER of states, but the electoral college.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Nice moving of the goalposts.  We all agree that Obama has to win Pennsylvania.  You're the one throwing Ohio or Florida into it.

Pennsylvania, plus the other states that Obama wins but Clinton does not gives Obama a win.  Or, if you like, you can look at national polls.  Or, if you like, you can look at the little maps in the corner.

Or you can explain how someone who's distrusted by the majority of people is electable.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Weird how you go from specific to average to specific to suit your argument. The pollster average has Obama ahead by 3 in Iowa.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't forget (none / 0)

With a 50 state campaign I think SC, GA, and Mississippi could be in play.
However I think Obama will try playing more for the west, CO, NM, NV.

Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Obama loses Mo. He polls 10 pts or more behind McCain. He's tied in CO but so was Kerry in 2004. Betting on states that haven't been blue in decades is a losing strategy for sure.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Betting on states that have been blue+1 hasn't been a winning strategy.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

Please throw a couple of links to recent polls that support your facts my way.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said.... (2.00 / 2)

Show me where Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania are NOT crucial swing states. Clinton beats McCain in all three.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (2.00 / 0)

Awesome. My question remains:


Clinton beats McCain in all three

According to who?


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (none / 0)

Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?Rele aseID=1164


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (2.00 / 1)

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_conte nt/politics/election_20082/2008_presiden tial_election/pennsylvania/election_2008 _pennsylvania_presidential_election


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

According to RealClearPolitcis poll averages... (2.00 / 3)

... Obama leads McCain in Pennsylvania and Clinton trails McCain in Florida.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)


   Obama beats McCain in two of them. what's your point?
by southernman on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Clinton beats McCain in the general in FL?

With Crist and his machine with their thumbs on the scale?

Dream on....


"No reason to get excited," the thief, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke....
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

That's only true of Hillary Clinton.  Obama has states available to him that she doesn't; Virginia, which is trending Democratic, had a black governor in the recent past, and which he took by 19 points.  North Carolina and Georgia to a lesser extent.

Plus all of the states out west that are available to him - look at an electoral map and look at all the "solid red" states that he's beating McCain in - Colorado, Nevada, South Dakota - all of which Hillary Clinton loses.

The last two democratic challengers lost by just a few electors - picking up Ohio or Florida is like using a sledgehammer when you only need a little nudge.


by Mostly