TPM on deceptive robo-call story

TPM Muckracker is digging further into the story of the deceptive robo-calls in North Carolina that targeted African-American voters.

(Note: My earlier dairy on this subject, Clinton backers behind deceptive robo-calls aimed at blacks, was pulled from the top of the rec list by someone in charge.)

From TPM:

Nonprofit Women's Voices Women Vote Stops Suspicious N.C. Robo Calls

Yesterday we posted about suspicious calls being made in North Carolina. The calls purported to be from a man who identified himself only as "Lamont Williams" and told people to wait for a vote registration packet in the mail and said, "All you need to do is sign it, date it and return your application. Then you will be able to vote and make your voice heard."

Democracy North Carolina, a government watchdog, cried foul, saying that the calls went out to "black neighborhoods" and was evidently a vote suppression tactic since the registration deadline for the presidential primary has already passed. The North Carolina state elections board got involved and asked for the public's help in determining the source of the calls, which apparently blocked caller ID from showing the number. You can listen to the call here (wav).

Now Facing South reports that a Washington nonprofit called Women's Voices Women Vote is behind the calls.

There is more to this story. The WVWV explanation doesn't hold water. Maggie Williams, Clinton's campaign manager, was on the Leadership Team (cached link) of WVWV as recently as last May.

There's more at TPM...

Personal note
My previous diary on this topic was removed from the very top of the rec list and I was halted from posting until I agreed to abide by the followiung warning:

You have been warned...

2008-04-30 14:22:46

Refrain from diaries with inflammatory headlines, in this case racist connotations. Read the guidelines.

I completely disagree that my diary headline contained any racist connotations. It was a summary of the piece cited in my diary which came from a highly reputable source.

The moderators responsible for giving me that warning are wrong and I only accepted the warning so that I could post again.



Display:


Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

I was wondering where your original diary went.


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:05:21 PM EST

It's down the list, but it was pulled from the top (1.66 / 3)

... of the rec list.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's down the list, but it was pulled from the (2.00 / 1)

So was Mumphrey's diary Racism on this Site. It disappeared from top of the rec list to nowhere around noon.

The only two non Hillary diaries get removed.

I thought the whole point of rec lists and netroots etc was that the community editorialises itself.

If they go for you, Bob, then it's an incredibly short term hit for a long term betrayal of the principles of this blog


by brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My diary is not a Hillary (2.00 / 3)

Clinton diary and it is still on the Rec List.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/29/1845 20/166

Paul Krugman: Barack Obama is right on gas tax holiday.
by TomP, Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 06:45:20 PM EST

Full statement from this group at issue in your diary below.

I have no idea what they are or were doing, but I see the spin today by Obama supporters.  Some folks want it to be bad and want to tie it to Clinton.  Especially after all the Rev. Wright stuff.  

This part was interesting:

Bryant (Ethel Bryant, Edgecombe County Board of Elections) agreed the method seems to be working. "They send out the voter's applications in a pre-packaged envelope with postage paid," she said. "Many are female and from rural areas, where it is harder to run out and get a stamp to post a letter. Since it doesn't need a stamp, they are able to drop it right in the mail."

"Voter Registration Cards Pour In," The Daily Southerner, February 29, 2008

"This is, by far, the largest we've seen," Johnnie Mclean (deputy director of the State Board of Elections)said. One reason for the state's uptick are prefilled voter registration applications from a Washington-based voting advocacy (WVWV) group that were mailed to thousands of private mailboxes in North Carolina. Recipients can verify their information and mail the cards to the state elections office.

"Young Voters: Sign Us Up", Greensboro News-Record, March 9, 2008

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 408/Womens_Voices_apologizes.html

Statement of Page Gardner, President, Women's Voices, Women Vote.

"This week, more than 276,000 North Carolina residents received a voter registration application from Women's Voices, Women Vote. North Carolina is one of 24 states where we mailed a total of more than 3 million voter registration applications.

"In addition to the mailing, calls were made to mail recipients for whom we have working phone numbers to alert the household they would be receiving a voter registration form and encouraging them to register to vote. In advance of the mail, a letter was sent and calls were made to Gary Bartlett in the North Carolina Board of Elections Office notifying them of the intent and content of our mailing effort. A copy of the letter and a press release sent to North Carolina media announcing the registration effort is attached.

"We understand concerns have been raised about the source of phone calls placed by Women's Voices, Women Vote. These calls were our sincere attempt to encourage voter registration for those not registered for the general election this fall. We understand North Carolina's primary registration effort deadline was April 11, (other than those participating in early voting who may register and vote at the same time this week). We apologize for any confusion our calls may have caused. Our intent and purpose was solely to call attention to the registration applications we hope will be completed and returned to the Board of Elections office making thousands more North Carolinians participants in one of the most important elections of our lifetimes.

Women's Voices. Women Vote has been in contact with the North Carolina State Board of Elections to work together to resolve any confusion regarding our voter registration efforts. Women's Voices. Women vote is also working with its mail vendor and postal officials in North Carolina in an attempt to delay the delivery of the voter registration applications until after the primary.

"Women's Voices. Women Vote is a non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to bringing the voices of unmarried women to our democracy. Our goal in this election cycle is to register 1 million of these women on their own, in turn helping to bring their concerns regarding making affordable health care, equal pay for equal work and a brighter future for themselves and the lives of their families, to the forefront of the election this fall.

"Already this cycle, our voter registration efforts have generated more than 26,600 registration applications in North Carolina. Women's Voices. Women Vote first registered voters in North Carolina in 2004. Nationally, Women's Voices Women Vote registered over 100,000 new voters in both 2004 and 2006. Since July of 2007, almost 400,000 additional individuals have returned our applications in anticipation of participating in the 2008 general election.

Bryant (Ethel Bryant, Edgecombe County Board of Elections) agreed the method seems to be working. "They send out the voter's applications in a pre-packaged envelope with postage paid," she said. "Many are female and from rural areas, where it is harder to run out and get a stamp to post a letter. Since it doesn't need a stamp, they are able to drop it right in the mail."

"Voter Registration Cards Pour In," The Daily Southerner, February 29, 2008

"This is, by far, the largest we've seen," Johnnie Mclean (deputy director of the State Board of Elections)said. One reason for the state's uptick are prefilled voter registration applications from a Washington-based voting advocacy (WVWV) group that were mailed to thousands of private mailboxes in North Carolina. Recipients can verify their information and mail the cards to the state elections office.

"Young Voters: Sign Us Up", Greensboro News-Record, March 9, 2008

Do facts matter, though?  Zealotry seems to be all that matters on both sides.

Many will pick out facts to support your preconceived notions.  Any truth becomes irrelevant in the zeal to attack the opponent and glorify the chosen candidate. Many in the netroots stand revealed as just likw dittoheads.

And so it goes.


by TomP on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My diary is not a Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Your diary was fine and fairly uncontroversial.

I'm worried about the dissenting diaries being downrated from the admins. And that would be the same if they were pro Hillary


by brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough. (2.00 / 4)

I agree with free speech.

I did not read the one diary by Bob Johnson, but I did recommend the other diary, although I had some provisos (in my mind) to that recomendation.  There are a very small number of people here who seem more willing to use racist themes.  The overwhelming majority of Clinton supporters do not and are not.  Nor is Hillary or Bill Clinton.  So I recommended that diary, although I thought it exaggerated the problem here.

I find there to be more actual dialogue here than on Daily Kos.


by TomP on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My diary is not a Hillary (2.00 / 1)

withhold judgment

let's wait until we have more facts


by Alice Marshall on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

additional facts (2.00 / 1)

Chris Bowers has more on this


by Alice Marshall on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (1.83 / 6)

... disenfranchisement among friends?

It's not like that's something Rove would pull...


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 5)

and what's a little blaming it all on Hillary? jeez.


by swissffun on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 2)

I am not yet convinced that this was coordinated with any campaign.  Regardless, it's still bad.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:30:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 1)

well then why defend a diary that clearly states it was Hillary behind this?


by swissffun on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 3)

Her campaign may be linked to this.  It may not be linked to this.  WVWV clearly is.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 1)

It stated it so clearly, that it didn't have to say it all /doublethink

It said Hillary backers are behind it, which is simply factual.  


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (none / 0)

And if you're a believer in democracy and dialogue, why troll Bob Johnson down-thread for merely quoting his own diary?

Poster suppression methinks


by brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (none / 0)

Do we know the relative percentage of people receiving these calls who are African-American, or what geographic areas were targeted?  That many reports came from African-Americans doesn't say alot by itself since many people in North Carolina are African-American - we need to know how WVWV targeted calls.

This bothers me alot because the Democratic Party would greatly benefit from WVWV's stated purpose of getting more single women to vote.  The timing, use of a male voice, and failure to identify themselves strongly suggest that either WVWV is spectacularly incompetent or WVWV knew they were not pursuing their official objective.


by CA Pol Junkie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:30:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 4)

OMG.

This group is registering unmarried women to vote for the general election. Read the statement by the President on the WVWV website.

http://www.wvwv.org

There is absolutely nothing to this story except that some people who are getting the registration packets are thinking the group is focusing on the primaries rather than the GE. I suspect the group needs better editors.

Most likely, a large percentage of these voters will vote Democratic. That's why both HRC and Obama backers are members of this group.

The only person who should be worried is John McCain. Imagine if 1 million more women voted in 2008 than in 2004!


The world cannot survive four more years of Bush.
by madamab on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"some people are thinking" (2.00 / 1)

Um, calling in the middle of the primaries and not specifying in the calls that this program is for the general election are good reasons why "some people ... are thinking the group is focusing on the primaries rather than the GE".


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 4)

Unfortunately, there is a difference between WVWV's stated purpose and what they are actually doing.  Between using a male voice, not identifying themselves, and calling after the registration deadline in the primary but before the vote in multiple states it strains credulity to say they were merely incompetent at carrying out their mission.


by CA Pol Junkie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 3)

They are breaking the law.  They are calling with blocked numbers and they don't properly identify themselves in the call.  This is illegal, and a pretty solid indication that they are intentionally trying to suppress voter turnout.


by anevarez on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, what's wrong with a little... (2.00 / 2)

... Class I Felony?

Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.  I'm having a real hard time determing which is the case here.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 4)

How would this disenfranchise someone? There is no there, there. These people raise money to register people to vote and they do a very good job of it. They are fine progressive organization.

This is a shameful attack.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (none / 0)

How can you register someone to vote, if you call registered voters after the registration deadline is over, and tell them that if they want to vote, they need to wait for a registration packet?

These people say that their purpose is to register people to vote, but they've had complaints against them in 11 states now.


by Joe Buck on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, what's a little African-American voter (2.00 / 2)

More baseless attacks and race-baiting from the master of smear.  I no longer have any respect for you after this tabloid garbage.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you (2.00 / 3)

validate the anti-gay slur and use it to justify voter suppression.

Nice.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

See, now, Easley's comments were inflammatory and offensive. But what's a little gay bashing for effect?

Growing a set doesn't mean being a prick.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 2)

Yeah this comment were it about women would have people in this site up in arms about mysogeny.

I guess it's ok to tell somone, let alone a whole swathe of the electorate to "grow a set"

I troll rate you for sexist remarks.


by Why Not on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

this stuff is tame . no wonder the NC governor eludes to stop being pansies.

And I mean this w/ no disrespect,

wow
wash your mouth out with soap


by Alice Marshall on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Matter of Relativity (1.50 / 2)

If this is the sole criteria, many Pro-Clinton diaries should have been removed and as quickly.

Double standard on Mydd?  A bias for Clinton?  


by optimusprime on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:06:32 PM EST

Re: Matter of Relativity (2.00 / 1)

Sure looks like it.


John McCain vows to overturn Roe
by soccerandpolitics on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

I am waiting for more facts to come out before passing judgment on this robocall story.

But setting that side, the fact that you don't believe your headline was race-baiting in the least is emblematic of where this primary has gone.  Please try to be at least minimally self-aware.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:06:34 PM EST

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 2)

This is saddening. I hope Jerome, Todd or Jonathan comment here to explain what happened. Or at least send you an email explaining the case. That's a horrible charge on a diary that did none of the above.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:08:06 PM EST

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 5)

What the hell?  Clinton backers behind deceptive robo-calls aimed at blacks isn't racial to you?  And like I said - there is only innuendo that these calls were targeting black voters only so the title of the diary was intended to fan the flames of the racial tension.  And funny how this is all coming out right after the Rev. Wright fiasco.  Smoke screen much?


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

Refrain from diaries with inflammatory headlines, in this case racist connotations.

there is nothing inflammatory nor are their racist connotations. Just because its racial doesnt mean its racist


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 5)

The title implied Clinton is backing something that is directed toward hurting the black vote.  That is implying racism.  


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

the title was an accurate refelction of the story that was reported. I see no problem with a title accurately describing what i will be reading


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

So a title that states "Obama supporters behind move to keep old white granny away from the polls" wouldn't be at all offensive or racist to you, right?


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: JustJennifer's hypothetical (none / 0)

no, that title would not be offensive to me, as long as some group (say the NAACP's voter reg group) was for some reason calling old women and providing them with incorrect information.  And remember, these stories today are showing that this WVWV group has repeatedly made the same type of errors throughout the primary season.


by distraught on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: JustJennifer's hypothetical (2.00 / 1)

To tie this group to Clinton is dubious, at best.  I have asked this question before.  Why can Obama claim that it is unfair to hold him accountable for anything and everything his supporters/surrogates do but it is fair game to do that to Clinton?


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

no, the story's title said "Clinton BACKERS" -- which is very different than how you interpreted it, which was apparently "Clinton is backing"

wow...


by distraught on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

And given that people like Maggie Williams and John Podesta are on the board, "Clinton backers" is provably accurate.


by Joe Buck on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

Also on the board, for instance, is William McNary, the president of the progressive coalition USAction and a leader of Illinois Citizen Action who has been, reportedly, a vigorous Obama supporters since his 2004 Senate race.


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 4)

I agree - you have NO PROOF that these robo calls were aimed at black voters ONLY.


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:08:25 PM EST

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

No one has made that claim.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

THIS diarist himself: it's all in the title of his unsubstantiated diary.

Clinton backers behind deceptive robo-calls aimed at blacks


by swissffun on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no one has said "ONLY". nt (none / 0)


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one has said "ONLY". nt (2.00 / 1)

what a semantics joke


by swissffun on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one has said "ONLY". nt (2.00 / 2)

It's the difference between being hit by lightning, and a lightning bug. Words matter.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one has said "ONLY". nt (2.00 / 2)

Words matter?  So does intent.  NO ONE with an ounce of integrity can argue that the intent of this diarist was nothing less than an attempt to say Clinton operatives were working to disenfranchise African-American voters.  

Cut the bullshit, dude.  You're parsing is sickening, as is this ridiculous "story".


by DaTruth on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one has said "ONLY". nt (2.00 / 1)

You put "ONLY" in all caps to emphasize it and then when called on it, you brush it off as "semantics?!"  That's the joke.


John McCain vows to overturn Roe
by soccerandpolitics on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I never wrote 'only.' (2.00 / 5)

That is your interpretation. But they certainly were targeting African-Americans. From the linked TP story:

Democracy North Carolina, a government watchdog, cried foul, saying that the calls went out to "black neighborhoods" and was evidently a vote suppression tactic since the registration deadline for the presidential primary has already passed. The North Carolina state elections board got involved and asked for the public's help in determining the source of the calls, which apparently blocked caller ID from showing the number. You can listen to the call here (wav).


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never wrote 'only.' (2.00 / 2)

bob

i admire your efforts but the only story here is about obama supporters going berserk.

please re-read all the facts then write your third diary apologizing to hillary and her supporters.

have a nice day.


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never wrote 'only.' (none / 0)

and i suppose that you would like to ignore the efforts of the WVWV, which has repeatedly given bad information to 100s of thousands of potential voters in multiple states.

please see this link, where the story broke: http://www.southernstudies.org/facingsou th/


by distraught on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how many voters have you signed up? (none / 0)

"This is, by far, the largest we've seen," Johnnie Mclean (deputy director of the State Board of Elections)said. One reason for the state's uptick are prefilled voter registration applications from a Washington-based voting advocacy (WVWV) group that were mailed to thousands of private mailboxes in North Carolina. Recipients can verify their information and mail the cards to the state elections office.

"Young Voters: Sign Us Up", Greensboro News-Record, March 9, 2008


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

Right On! After all, I know all sorts of white people named Lamont. A lot of Asians too. Heck I know women named Lamont.


by gert on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

TPM is quite good at investigative reporting.  They broke open the US Attorney Scandal, which led to Gonzales' departure.  I hope they get to the bottom of this.


by NewOaklandDem on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:09:19 PM EST

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

You have not been following TPM lately. Paul Kiel won't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to smear Hillary Clinton. They'll drop the story as soon as it becomes clear that WVWV are the good guys.


by souvarine on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

Regardless of your opinion of Kiel 9which I don't agree with), I think they do great investigative work, and will get to the bottom of this, no matter who is behind it.


by NewOaklandDem on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

They have been complained about in over 10 different states for deceptive robocalls and late mailings of confusing "registration packets."  Now, one state going out late, that's a mistake.  But 10 different states?

This is a professional organization run by people with extensive political experience.  You are really naive enough to think they can't even remember the voter registration deadline?  I'm not going to pass judgment until all of the facts come out.  But so far this looks pretty damn fishy to me.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Racist Connotations (2.00 / 4)

Saying that the title had "racist connotations" is a major stretch. The deceptive robo-calls were in fact allegedly made to black voters. I guess they probably didn't like that you so explicitly accused Clinton supporters of using racially-targeted voter suppression tactics in North Carolina. Maybe "Clinton backers behind deceptive robo-calls aimed at blacks" was not an appropriate title.

But the moderator also could have asked you to change the title of the diary instead of removing it from the Rec list.


by Hatch on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:09:44 PM EST

there are two separate issues here (2.00 / 4)

1.  Did WVWV deliberately or negligently engage in deceptive tactics?

2.  Was it in any way coordinated with a political campaign.

I hope folks can recognize that the first one is worth answering regardless of which candidate is being supported.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:09:59 PM EST

Re: there are two separate issues here (2.00 / 2)

It is an extremely important issue, but writing diaries proclaiming that Clinton backers are trying to disenfranchise black voters is a practice likely to shed more heat than light.

I'd love to get to the bottom of this but there seems to be a little too much partisanship in the air for that to happen.  Judging by the diaries and comments, everyone seems to have already decided that those racist Clintons are at it again.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: there are two separate issues here (2.00 / 1)

"Everyone" has decided "Racist Clintons"?

I read the initial diary. Not one person even suggested the Clintons were racist.

The investigative reporting did however PROVE that many high level Clinton supporters were behind the organisation that made the robo calls.

Nothing was made of the fact that a high proportion of these potential voters were African American. The obvious conclusion had nothing to do with racism, merely the targeting of groups which could be considered pro Obama. It was vote fixing, that's all

So stop making inflammatory accusations about race.

If Bob gets bounced from the rec list for even including this fact in his headline, you should get castigated for making it THE SOLE POINT OF HIS STORY


by brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: there are two separate issues here (2.00 / 3)

It has already become the gospel truth in Obama-supporting quarters that this was an attempt to suppress the black vote.  No one is even interested in looking for evidence.

The sole evidence for introducing a racial element into the story is the statement by Democracy North Carolina that calls went to "black neighborhoods."  There does not appear to be any evidence that the calls went exclusively to black neighborhoods, or even disproportionately.  Reality-based progressives should be interested in getting to the bottom of this, but I guess it's easier just to assume the conclusion.

Accusing someone of disenfranchising black voters is an extremely incendiary allegation in this country.  It's not something that should be recklessly thrown around in a diary title.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: there are two separate issues here (2.00 / 2)

There was nothing reckless about the allegation. It was fully sourced from two independent and well respected news outlets.

You may chose not to rec the diary, trust it, or read it. But that does not mean it should be bounced.

I've seen much less fact filled diaries, sourced from right wing pundits, stay at the top of the rec list for days.

Where was your moral objectivity then?


by brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

Bob,

I have in the past and will continue in the future to look to you as one of the Obama supporters that can be respectful and with whom I can have a meaningful contradiction.

I was deeply disappointed by your diary, so much so that I needed to write one of my own, just to set the record straight.

I hope that I can continue to count on you to hold yourself to a higher standard.

Regards,

Bob


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:12:41 PM EST

My diary and its title were completely accurate (1.75 / 4)

... representations of the linked story. The calls were targeting African-Americans according to the original story and also noted in the TPM piece linked, above:

Democracy North Carolina, a government watchdog, cried foul, saying that the calls went out to "black neighborhoods" and was evidently a vote suppression tactic since the registration deadline for the presidential primary has already passed. The North Carolina state elections board got involved and asked for the public's help in determining the source of the calls, which apparently blocked caller ID from showing the number. You can listen to the call here (wav).


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not at all (2.00 / 2)

There is a world of difference between "calls went out to (many neighborhoods, including some that were) black neighborhoods", and "targetting black people with intent to disenfranchise them".

World of difference.

According to your primary source, the calling lists were "wildly inaccurate".

How do you reconcile this (accurate) discription with the notion that they were some sort of precision-guided munition?

And why on earth would such a highly targetted scheme call Farmer, who is not only caucasion but a Chair of the NC DNC?

You were looking for some mud and decided to call Hillary a racist.  Deplorable.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are lying. (1.66 / 3)

Which is typical.

You were looking for some mud and decided to call Hillary a racist.  


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not known for that (2.00 / 2)

I think there are a number of Obama supporters on this site that know me enough by now to know that I don't lie.  What you did crossed a line and you needed to be called out.  If your defense is an ad hominem attack, people can take that for what it's worth.

I know you are capable of better and I believe you let your feelings or bias get the better of you.  Whatever else we know about Hillary Clinton, we can be sure of this - her public life, well before her time in the White House, has been animated by a few common themes.  Boosting turnout and fighting any measures that impede participation is one of them.

It is absolutely absurd for you to suggest that she would engage in an effort to disenfranchise Blacks, or that she would tolerate any such effort being associated with her campaign on any level.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not known for that (2.00 / 2)

Actually, this comment from you was absolutely dishonest.  You never corrected it when I called you on it either.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not known for that (2.00 / 1)

First of all, I did not read your response.  Sometimes responses to comments I have made slip through the cracks because I make a lot of comments.

Secondly, what you did there was pretty lame.  I'm attributing positions to Barack Obama supporters and you pretend it's dishonest because those aren't direct quotes from Obama?  Where did I say that?  In context I was clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama supporters, and in fact I echoed that same rationale more clearly in in this comment.

Rather than go further into that topic I will just let this correction (of your mis-impression) end here.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not known for that (none / 0)

Your wordier clarification is equally dishonest.  You totally mischaracteriz what Obama supporters have been saying, and what Obama himself said and did. You are right though that this isn't the place and best to let it end.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You lie. Again. (1.75 / 4)

Nowhere do I claim that Clinton did this or even knew about it. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I noted in the headline that those involved were "Clinton backers" as the cited story proved.

Why do you insist on claiming that I wrote that Hillary was involved?


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lie. Again. (2.00 / 3)

The cited story did not "prove" that the organization in question supports Clinton, has endorsed Clinton, or, more crucial to your baseless allegation, that it is directed by the Clinton campaign in any way, shape or form.

What it established was that there were some people in this organization that were former Clinton staffers.  Just like there are lots of former Clinton staffers on Barack's campaign.  So that is not conclusive.

It also mentions that one of the members of this organization has contributed to Hillary, and another member has contributed to both candidates.

Again, not conclusive.

Somehow, in your brain, an unclear association and wildly inaccurate calling lists because an evil plot to suppress the Black vote executed by Clinton backers, the clear implication being that Clinton's campaign is somehow encouraging or even directing this.

So drop the passive-aggressive routine.  It might suffice for your cheerleaders but I'm not buying it.  You have really sunk to a new low today, and now apparently it is just a question of how low you will go.  Insulting me perosnally doesn't make your allegations any less baseless.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lie. Again. (none / 0)

Of course the organization itself has not endorsed Clinton.  But check out the membership of its board. It's almost all Clinton people.


by Joe Buck on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lie. Again. (2.00 / 1)

Except for the Barack people on it.  Hmm.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm with you bobbank (1.00 / 1)

Bob Johnson is playing games with innuendo. He knows exactly what he's doing with insinuation and plausible deniability. You nailed it, it is passive aggressive.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 2)

Do you hold yourself to that standard? Accusing those of us who are, I believe, rightly appalled at this story -- mistake or not -- as playing "the race card" is a pretty nasty stretch.

I'll speak for myself, if David Axelrod and a bevy of Obama supporters were on board, I'd be just as outraged. A bit more confused, but just as upset.

I don't buy the confusion arguement at this time. I see nothing in their history to justify the pattern of "confusion" this group has sowed. There's little to explain "Lamont Wilson"s robocall.

That's not the race card. That's race in a news story. You might want to skip the scolding tone.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

To answer your question without getting down in the mud: yes, I do.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 2)

Actually, a bevy of Obama supporters ARE in the leadership of this group.


by dhonig on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 1)

I got "the warning" too. Signed so I could get back to posting> Last thing we need is ANOTHER echo chamber.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:13:02 PM EST

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 2)

So the title "UPDATE 2 - Clinton backers behind deceptive robo-calls aimed at blacks"

the error is with the "aimed". A question mark or the word "potentially" would have made the difference, I guess.

But given the content, the fact that Clinton backers are behind deceptive (they don't attribute themselves to the call) robocalls that news reports say are affecting blacks -- (something the use of "Lamont Williams" would indicate) it's a real stretch to call you racist.

I think an email saying: "Avoid potential libel" in your title might be nice instead. After all, calling it "racist" is also libelous, since you'd be hard pressed to, with a straight face, call that title "racist."


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:13:15 PM EST

It was an inflammatory headline (1.66 / 3)

For a diary based on very little evidence with a lot of "guilt by association" innuendos.

Typical of Obama supporters.

The intention of the headline was clear to suggest that somehow there was an effort involved in suppressing AA votes.

Nonsense! The calls took place after the primary registration deadline and would have had no impact on anyone's registration or voting.

It seems to be due to incompetance on the part of the people in charge than any conspiracy.

Bob Johnson of course cannot give anyone the benefit of the doubt because he and his friends so desparately want to gin up any controversy and change the subject from JWright.

If you guys hadn't played this game before, we might give you the benefit of the doubt and take your outrage seriously.

Given your history, we know what it is. Feigned outrage!

Stop engaging in character assasination against fellow Democrats!


by BigB on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:16:40 PM EST

Re: It was an inflammatory headline (2.00 / 2)

Given your history, we know what it is. Feigned outrage!

Stop engaging in character assasination against fellow Democrats!

please as if HRC and her supporters werent doing the exact same thing over Obama's 'bitter' remarks. I can't count how many diaries there were about that.


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Big difference (2.00 / 2)

One was a remark (bitter) made by a candidate which was condescending toward working class voters. Diaries on that are fair game. The diaries certainly did not have racial connotations.

This diary refers to a set of incompetant robo-calls made by a long-time liberal organization which is not directly associated with the Clintons. It somehow tries to turn this into voter suppressio tactics aimed at AA.

In any organization on the left, you will find people who have donated to other Democrats.

This is more than six-degrees of separation.

Overall, an extremely irresponsible diary that will only serve to widen the current divisions in the Democratic party.

If you Obama supporters continue in this vein, it is going to be very hard if not impossible to unite this party.


by BigB on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Big difference (2.00 / 2)

I commented on the "feigned outrage" and "character assassination" part of his comment. HRC and her supporters did the exact same thing. Obama's bitter comments, though worded poorly, were not that big of a deal. Instead HRC and her supporters took the thrust of his point out of context and "feigned outrage" saying it was a fatal gaffe and such a despicable thing to say and proceeded to call Obama an elitist, aloof and out of touch with Americans (character assassination) when he is clearly not. That is what I am alleging was exactly the same.  


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Big difference (none / 0)

If the calls are "incompetent", then WVWV will be able to produce a man named Lamont Williams.  If there is no Lamont Williams, then the calls were malevolent, since the caller would then have given a false name.

If the calls are "incompetent", why is this the 11th state that they've been incompetent in the same way?

And why would an organization headed up by Clinton pollster Joe Goode, with Clintonite John Podesta on its board, with Maggie Williams on its board until recently, be so incompetent?

It's a Clintonite organization, even though it is formally independent.


by Joe Buck on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (none / 0)

Democracy North Carolina, a government watchdog, cried foul, saying that the calls went out to "black neighborhoods" and was evidently a vote suppression tactic since the registration deadline for the presidential primary has already passed.
 

this makes no sense. if it's too late then the phone call makes no difference either way, correct? in other words, if they hadn't been robo-called it wouldnt be too late?


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:19:01 PM EST

You miss the point (2.00 / 4)

Telling people who are registered to vote that they need to take steps to get registered to vote is a deceptive practice which dissuades them from voting.


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh that's rich (none / 0)

gimmie a break already. if that's the case why would the voter registration deadline matter?

hilarious!


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (2.00 / 2)

Because they'd be told was too late for them to do anything about it, even if it were true.

At best, this is horribly sloppy work.  At worst ...


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (2.00 / 1)

this looks like sloppy work AND sloppy complaining.


by doberman pinche on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (2.00 / 3)

Everybody is gonna feel like an idiot when it comes out this is all because some intern didn't know how to operate a calendar correctly...


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (2.00 / 1)

In, what, ten different states?  That's what I don't get -- after states like Wisconsin complain about voters getting confused, they still did it?


by Adam B on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (none / 0)

There is a fine line between negligence and incompetency, you should know that in your line of work. I think it kept going because there was no attnetion being paid to it, and now there is so it looks a lot worse than had the attention been in the first state.

My 2 cents: This looks like sloppy work from a 2-bit organization with 2-bit operators who are wilting under the current media blazing gaze.

Never under-estimate the stupidity of others, especially when they are holding occam's razor.


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh that's rich (2.00 / 1)

Their conduct in Virginia attracted the attention of the police, evidently, who suspected an identity theft scam.

And they were only tracked down in North Carolina because the state elections board asked for the public's help in determining the source of the calls, which blocked caller ID from showing the number (which is a violation of state law).


by Joe Buck on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TPM on deceptive robo-call story (2.00 / 3)

This is how it worked.  From the articles I've read, most of those who received calls were already registered to vote.  The calls told them they should fill out and return a packet coming in the mail if they wished to vote in the upcoming election.  The implication being, you are not registered to vote unless you send in the packet.  Ergo, registered voters were led to believe they were not actually registered.  That's why its potentially disenfranchising.  No, it wouldn't have actually barred anyone from voting... but if they don't show up at the polls it's the same net effect.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Blog roundup (2.00 / 3)

It's not just TPM, it's

Daily Kos front-page...

Atrios...

AmericaBlog...

...and more to come, but those are the biggies.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:23:16 PM EST

Re: Blog roundup (2.00 / 2)

You missed the media hits, like Politico.com. Yes, we are aware the Obama camp is engaged in a full court press to accuse Hillary Clinton of African American voter suppression prior to North Carolina. It's SOP.

Those of us who have been involved with Democratic politics for a few cycles, and are familiar with how voter registration work is done, are horrified that Obama people would take this tack.


by souvarine on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh. (2.00 / 5)

Please, in the rush to attack Obama, save some concern for the actual voter suppression.

I shudder to imagine what the reaction would have been had, say, David Plouffe sat on the board of an organization that got caught trying to suppress the turnout of, say, elderly women in Pensylvania.

We've been lambasted for weeks now with William Ayers, based on the fact that he and Obama sat on a board together. There have been literally dozens of hyper-ventilating diaries about how this close association between Obama and Ayers is The Most Important Thing Ever.

Now, Maggie Williams, Clinton's former chief of staff and present campaign manager, sits on a board of an organization that has admitted to and apologized for voter suppression, which may very well involve a felony offense, in a pattern spread across eleven states, and again, the real bad guy is Obama.

Because no matter what, Barack Obama is always the bad guy.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. (2.00 / 1)

Voter suppression? LOL - I read the story. I didn't any evidence of voter suppression and neither did you.

Go ahead - show us one example of the vote being suppressed because of this premier progressive organization. Not an open ended accusation, but an actual instance.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silly. (2.00 / 1)

The ballots haven't been cast yet. You can't say it's not voter suppression just because the election hasn't happened yet. It's a little late to try to suppress voters after election day, no?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly. (2.00 / 3)

Ahhh, so voter is suppression is a bogus charge. Thank you. this is just one more example of the Obama campaign willing to burn progressive organizations just to have a better shot at winning the primary - the general election be damned.

After this smear by the Obama camp, why should this organization support voter reg drives if he's the candidate? Did the geniuses supporting obama ever think of that?

He must have some really bad polling numbers out of North Caroline to be this desperate. This is one of the most pathetic, anti-Democratic campaign moves I've ever seen from a Democrat.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Snort. (2.00 / 1)

Awesome, so we're now at the point where we have Democrats arguing that voter suppression doesn't exist. Just like republicans when they get caught doing it.

this is just one more example of the Obama campaign willing to burn progressive organizations just to have a better shot at winning the primary

Like when Hillary Clinton trashed the organization where Obama and Ayers sat on a board together. Gotcha. Or when Clintonists trashed the DNC for raising money with Obama.

the general election be damned.

You mean like when you folks couldn't stop talking about how Obama's out of touch with poor whites?

You're not fooling anyone, buddy.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. (1.50 / 2)

I'm guessing you don't have a problem with Republican caging operations either.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. (2.00 / 1)

I'm sure you think you have a point here. Go ahead - explain how the action taken here, by a well-known and well-respected progressive organization which raises money to register voters to vote Democratic, is similar to Republican caging operations.

Explain how someone would lose their ability to vote because of what transpired here.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As Adam B says above (2.00 / 3)

if you call registered voters and tell them they need to be registered via a mail package yet to be sent to them, otherwise they can't vote, what do you think the effect is going to be?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As Adam B says above (2.00 / 1)

I would assume people would go to the polls and vote. Do you have any evidence that anyone has ever not voted because of the work Women's Voices, Women's Votes has done?

They are a fine organization that has been around since before 2004. I can't believe you jokers are smearing them like this just because Obama's poll numbers are falling in North Carolina. Should he be the nominee, this is an organization who is going to be working on his behalf.

What an ugly, nasty campaign Obama is running. I'm just staggered by this.


by Little Otter